Creation and intelligence: beyond man

[Greta]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ... I am so fascinated by this thread!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif ... I love where you guys have taken this... as it all really does make alot of sense to me... well... except for Charles' conversation with Gabriel... but that's for another time. For now, this is awesome! ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Ok... so where does intelligence fit into all this? And for that matter, LACK of intelligence? And let's go one step further... what do we consider to be "intelligence"? Perhaps to those worms at the bottom of the sea, we humans are really, really stupid! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

 

[McGizmo]

Moat,

On reincarnation, because you don't remember, at least consciously, may not mean that you don't have some subconscious "base" which never the less has "bearing" on who you are.

All,
While we seem to be open to some speculation here, I would like to propose that each of us *might* consist of an entity which is a merge of two components; A transendental spirit or soul (TS) as well as a physical body. The TS has evolved through previous life experiences and can temper or effect one's outlook as well as personality at subconsious and primary levels. The body is a result of genetic experience and evolution based on the ancestors of the offspring. There may very well be a genetic history which also has its effect on one's outlook as well as personality at a subconscious and primary level.

Now as one lives and interacts with his environment and others, there are new experiences and conditions which subtly change the TS as well as body. The TS grows or evolves due to new sensory perceptions, experiences and thought processes; all happening in a new landscape of experience and recorded in the context of the current physical body. The body grows and evolves due to its exposure to the physical world and makes evolutionary changes due to changes in the environment as well as control and will placed on it by the mind in control. I propose that what we eat, what we do in the physical (pump iron, learn ballet, run around in the sun naked, etc) and basically how we live has effect on our physiology and build as cells are replenished. I think the leap I want to make here, is that some how, our genitic code is altered in the process of living so that to some extent, we direct a personal and physical evolution which can be passed on to our offspring. I believe there have been documented cases of children manefesting certain physical expresions or recognizable responses even when these children were not in the presence of the parent to "learn" these. I think this can be shown to go beyond a simple, body type, response.

Now let me take a step further and suggest that due to pressures of PC, we may be ignoring racial signatures and tendencies which might point to genetic history due to the fear of stereo typing; I.E. White men can't dance. Does bagpipe music give me the goosebumps because of my Scottish ancestry or is it something else?

Let me throw out another racial speed bump based not on genetics but the TS. I once read an interview with a reasonably famous black women who was in some type of public office in the states as I recall. For background, she believed in reincarnation and further that the TS selects its next earthly host. Because of this, this woman came down really hard on any of her fellow black americans whenever they cited their collective history as the reason for their woes and oppression. Her position was basically that "Hey, you chose this role and body for incarnation so now that you are here, do something with yourself and get off your *** and stop complaining about the history of your people!" Interesting I think, as for this womanand her perception, the black she was dressing down was quite possibly a white physician in a previous life?!?!?!

Note: I coined the term TS in hopes to avoid the misuse of spirit or soul as Empath has explained them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[McGizmo]

Sasha,

I wonder if intelligence and self-awareness are'nt combined in assessing a man or animal's role or relative position. I would assume signs of intelligence might be measured in a life forms apparent ability to respond, "successfully", to a new or contrived set of stimuli? Any "natural" response may not point to intellegence which I take to mean the capacity to process information in some organized or logical manner.

It's the idea of self awareness that I find more confusing, especially in the sense that this might be something that might set man apart from the rest of the animal kingdom? Is self awareness simply the ability to speculate or consider either the past or future as it relates to the individual. Is it the process of understanding cause and effect and using this understanding towards accomplishing one's own goals or desires? I swear the dogs I have owned dream. If their dreams are projections of themselves in make believe roles and interactions, to what end do they dream? Is this any sign of self awareness or intelligence? Are they trying to learn?

I guess I am saying before we try to access how intelligence fits in, I need to have a better idea of just what intelligence might be? Man's intelligence, as measured by IQ, seems to be based on both memory and the ability to process information abstractly using math as well as the ability to recognize similarities and differences based on some set of criteria, symbology and what have you. a person's IQ can only be measured, however crudly, when the person willingly participates in a test. Further, the questions must be understood, to some extent by the subject. I dare say that my IQ would fall well below room temperature if the test were one developed for a citizen of France, for instance. I guess my point is that once intelligence is defined by certain parameters, how would one go about testing for intelligence in the animal kingdom without "speaking" their language. Off topic and on a tangent, I think that *we* often measure the intelligence of animals as based on their willingness to interact with us. I suspect that any test we might develope might be faulted by homocentric influence and give a false or biased result.

 

[Greta]

Don... exactly! How arrogant is it of us (humans) to think that we are so intelligent and everything else in the universe is inferior? We use ourselves as the standard. We measure everything against the human species. So let's talk about dogs. I think I can say I have a little bit of experience in this area... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Compared to me, my dogs are equal to a box of rocks when it comes to intelligence. Or maybe not? If we compare my dogs to a box of rocks and leave me out of the equation, the dogs are highly intelligent. Dogs can learn. Perhaps that is the determining factor? The ability to "learn"... or as you stated, process information. I also believe that instinct does play a role in intelligence. And as instinct is... well... instinctive ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif )... it follows that we are perhaps born with it. Thus... we are born with a certain amount of intelligence.

Consider sea turtles. We all know how that works. Pure instinct. The baby turtles know exactly what to do when they hatch out of those eggs on the beach. How? Intelligence? I would have to say yes. And further, I'd have to say that it is bred into them.

Self-awareness. Again, humans are extremely arrogant in assuming that only we have self-awareness and "souls". (Sorry... that is a very sore subject with me and perhaps we can get into that in another thread... I'd rather not get into it here... thanks in advance). And Don, you're right that we can never really measure this unless we can "speak their language". Ok... so we've learned a few things about dolphins over the years. We've even learned to understand a little bit of their language and learned to communicate with them on very basic levels. Or... perhaps they have taught us?!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Now there's a thought!! Don, I KNOW that you know more about these creatures than I do and can offer up so interesting facts... and/or theories. So let's forget about dogs for now. Mine love me despite all of my "warts"... surely, that proves their superior intelligence... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif So what about dolphins? My guess is that we are the box of rocks when compared to them.

 

[Icebreak]

Moat5606 -

Thanks for the links. Yep, that was the meteorite I was looking for. Nope, that wasn't the creature swimming in reactor water I was looking for. Interesting fellow that discovered it though.

McGizmo -

I'm going to need to re-read these two. Then I want to find Empath's distinction between spirit and soul.

I did look up homocentric...shared center. Trying to apply it to your last sentence now.

 

[Empath]

When looking for intelligence, or purposeful design in creation, it would likely be impossible to find something that can't be rationalized through happenstance. The "smoking gun" so to speak, would be the abundance of what appears to be purposeful design. It's a situation of not being able to point at one thing and saying "that is reasonable evidence", but instead pointing to an accumulation of all things and saying "that is just too unlikely to have been other than purposeful design".

The subject of symbiontic relationships was mentioned. It's a good example that is not explained by genetics, since each of the creatures have their own genetic code, yet can't survive without the other. Then too, simple mutational, nor natural selection survival seem to be a sufficient answer.

An example:

The picture above is a particular kind of protozoa. It has it's own genetic code. It feeds only on wood, in a very special environment. It lives within the stomach of termites. Now many think of a termite as feeding only on wood, but that's not the case. Termites can't digest wood on their own, but instead feed on the digestive output of the above protozoa. Termites too, have their own genetic code. Each termite has the protozoa in it's stomach. As the termite consumes the wood, the protozoa digests it, leaving termite digestible waste in return. Neither can survive without the other.

Pure happenstance would put the mutation of the protozoa at the same time as the mutation of the termite. Not only that, the appearance of each would have occurred with the protozoa in the stomach a of termite, or survival wouldn't have occurred. Of course a termite with a pre-mutated protozoa in it's stomach wouldn't survive, so neither the protozoa nor the termite would survive.

Such relationships are not confined to termites. Termites are but a small example. It seems the more complex the organism, the more reliant and more complex the symbiontic relationships. In many cases the absence of each required creature would mean death or non-functioning of the other. Termites do show the absolute importance of the relationship. The intelligently designed aspect is the unique genetic arrangement of each of the creatures involved with arrangement. The genes of each creature do not produce the other, but only themselves.

Of course we can see the reason and sense involved in natural selection and survival through competitive advantage and circumstance. We can imagine the mutation of new species, even though our efforts to duplicate or produce it hasn't been successful enough to be conclusive. Still, we can see the reasoning. However, throwing a symbiontic development into the works without purposeful design becomes more difficult to rationalize.

 

[Icebreak]

Sasha -

Didn't see your post before I posted. No poke intended.

 

[McGizmo]

Sasha,

I am a simple layman and am really bad at storing any facts or knowledge. I believe the presumed intelligence of the cetacea family has maybe been down graded in the last 10 to 20 years. Although Empath has pointed out that Entropy is a term used in thermodynamics, I like to abuse the term and apply it to amore general propensity towards randomness. That is to say I think a couch potato is an example of entropy; the *need* for a higher level of organization or energy is not there and hence the potato sits. The opposed thumb and forefinger of man has given him a tool that he has chosen, likely out of need, to use and shape and modify his environs to provide safety and comfort to him and his.

The cetacea as well as many other animals, do not have the dexterity to shape their environs to suit. Instead, they approach life with a "hands off" approach. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif If they have intelligence and if it could be measured, I don't know what we might find. If they had hands, who knows what they would do with them!

I have heard that dolphins can determine the condition of a fetus with their Ultra sound or whatever it is called and in fact they purportedly will initiate an abortion if there is something wrong with the fetus. This is heresay for me so take it as such. I have also "heard" of an instance where a bottlenose dolphin in one of those "swim with me parks" or some other type of man imposed captivity, continued to bump a fellow in the same spot in his chest with its nose. As the story goes, the man shortly there after found from a visit to a doctor that he had some type of tumor in the location of the dolphin's prodding. Is this true? I don't know. Is this a sign of intelligence or even more exciting, compassion? I don't know. Since I don't read the papers or magazines and don't watch TV, I am one "major" ignorant person! Unfortunately, with so much missinformation and subjective reporting in the media, some who do follow current events might be at a disadvantage to my "untainted" ignorance. I digress.......

I have heard that the bottlenose dolphin and orca are the most intelligent of the cetacea. Interestingly, the ranking of intelligence seems to point to the carnivorous groups having the higher levels of "reported" intelligence. Perhaps this is due to the need for intelligence to successfully hunt? If one accepts that man does evolve due to the need to survive and further that increased "growth" in intelligence might be shown to result in a survival context, what might one infer about a group of people who are livinng in a temperate climate where food is plentifull and "grazing" and agriculture can be supported as compared to a group of people living in a harsh and demanding climate where the seasons will diminish food supplies and shelter as well as stockpiles of food stores are required?

So I guess I am suggesting that one of the reasons for intelligence might be simple survival and the role intelligence might play, there in.

I find myself, personally, in a much different set of circumstances and my perceptions as well as understandings are certainly heavily effected by "my experience". I don't have to do very much to insure my survival ( I know, some of you see me damned for eternity at present but I am talking about the physical "now"). I have come to a position where I am self employed so my work/play is a 24/7 proposition. I find that I don't have nearly enough hours in the day to get to all that I want to do! My income is marginal (good thing my wife is fiscally responsible)and yet I am for the most part more satisfied than ever with where I am. So what you rightly ask! Well, the point I wanted to lead up to is that I find myself in the luxury of being able to pursue my curiousity! I think this is a key element that may or may not have direct bearing on survival. I am really curious and love getting in over my head and pulling something off or "cheating death" once again. I think curiousity is a very strong motivator in man but not limited to man. It may be nothing more than this inherent curiousity that makes accepting a static and subservant role to a god as defined 2000 years ago so unpalatable to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif Man, there is so much to see and experience and learn that I don't have the time to let entropy prevail! Well, somehow I got here but again am not sure if there was a point I was trying to make?

Oh yeah, the dolphins and intelligence. I suppose if they had hands, they might be able to "show" us their intelligence or lack there of. Since they don't, it's up to us to look harder. I have had a fair number of close encounters with dolphins as well as humpback and false killer whales through the years and I can only say, that for whatever reason, I cherish these encounters and will do what I can to have more. I spoke with a guy the other day who has gone to Baja and had the chance to pet a grey whale and he commented that it was a "religious experience". I must admit that I too am overwhelmed with some type of good "gut" response when I am in the whales proximity but then I also enjoy a puppies cold nose nudging me and I don't really know what that is about either. To have a young whale swim up to you playfully out of presumed curiousity is one great experience that I highly recommend and perhaps it is nothing more complcated that a meeting of curiousity; a universal language?

 

[McGizmo]

Icebreak,

I cheated when I used homocentric. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I wanted a term similar to ethnocentric but one that would apply to homosapien VS other life forms. Homocentric sonded good to me. Oops, the word *does* exist and I wonder what I said, in using it??!?

Empath,

Great example and wonderful food for thought! If that isn't a great "which came first, the chicken or the egg" I don't know what is! Like a computer and an OS, both are needed. Unlike a computer and OS, such symbiosis needs to be joined at the get go or there is no go.

Touched upon above as well are the Hive communities which taken as a whole, can and often are, considered a single entity. Viewing the myriads of different corals and how they fit in the overall scheme and architectures of a reef is somewhat mind boggling as well.

 

[jayflash]

I'd like to reiterate what was previously said: it's arrogant of us to assume that we're the most intelligent life form on the planet. How can we know that trees might not possess superior intelligence to ours?

Humans, by and large, are still wearing enormous blinders.

 

[McGizmo]

Jayflash,

I have an orange tree in back that I have beaten 8 out of 9 times in philisophical debate. I maintain that I *am* smarter then it! Heck, it can't even produce edible oranges in our climate! [dumb tree] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW, I still haven't heard of a good proposal for a trans species definition as to just what intelligence might be. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

EDIT: if success at survival is a measure of intelligence, I don't want to compete with a **** roach. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

 

[tygger]

This is in response to the discussion about our possible oversight of other animals intelligence. Take the example of dogs for instance. I read a while ago in Nat. Geographic that domesticated dogs, which have been with humans for over 10,0000 years i think, are literally masters at interpreting human body language and tone of voice. Basically, they can read us, and therefore attempt to choose the appropriate behavior that would be most pleasing to us without a single word spoken or command given. Now, if you're measuring intelligence, this could be considered genious. What better way to ensure the survival of your species than to align yourself and gain favor with the most dominant species on the planet? After all, most dogs in todays world do NOT even work. Yet they quickly gain a sacred place in the hearts of their owners and become as loved as children. I suppose their "job," is to respond to our behavior in order to be taken care of and loved. If there's a better strategy for survival of a species i haven't found one yet. Could this level of adaptation, measured with something other than a human IQ test, be considered highly intelligent? Heck, we have even made movies where the lead characters are DOGS?
And on a side note, what in the world is my dog dreaming about? He's constantly moving his paws like he's running in a field of grass chasing squirrels or something. Fascinating.

 

[McGizmo]

tygger,

Nice post! When you consider some of the manipulations and tasks animals ,like dogs, can accomplish with their paws and teeth, one could only guess what they could accomplish, if given a hand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[tygger]

Well if evolution is as unpredictable and adaptive as they say, 1000 years from now Rover might just have opposable paws. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[McGizmo]

tygger,

But as you have pointed out, rover really has it made as long as man is around to pick up the tab! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Unless Rover pecomes too curious or decides he wants to do some flashlight mods, he might just kick back and do what dogs do (cause they can) and leave the burden up to his best friend.

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

[ QUOTE ]
nisshin said:
Charles Bradshaw's view of the universe is interesting, but one point I see is that there is no actual difference between mainstream views and the Gabriel view. For example, parallel time universes have absolutely no effect on linear time ones (they have branched off), so whether they really exist or not has no bearing on our present universe. Second, spirit evolution is about adaptation of spirits in the spirit world, but how does that impinge on our world? It seems the Gabriel viewpoint is looking at mutually exclusive spheres, so that in the end, IMHO, there is no advantage in taking the Gabriel viewpoint for practical results. Perhaps I am looking for a Popper-style hypothesis that can be proven/disproven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nowhere did I say that Spirit Evolution only applied to THAT realm. Neither did I say anything about Parallel Time Universes. I said each universe has linear time and parallel time. Spirit evolution is different from Physical evolution: growth and learning, rather than adapting to environmental changes. Spirits inhabit Physical Bodies via incarnation. This is where the opportunity for the fastest Spiritual growth and learning is. Neither did I say there is only ONE physical life per Spirit.

There are vast differences from the 'mainstream' view.

Parallel universes are based only on differences from their Primary (or Root) universe's physical parameters (laws). Even the rate of time can be different.

 

[jayflash]

I'd expect someone with such a highly refined, Scottish, intellect, such as Mr. McGizmo possesses, to be atypical of the average hulk's faculties. Of course you SHOULD have beaten that orange tree, probably, EVERY time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For those who, unfortunately, lack the Scotish ancestory that we share /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif the red Maple, while hard, is easily debatable by 78% of homo sapiens.

 

[brightnorm]

Here's an organization that investigates paranormal claims and experiences.

SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF PARANORMAL CLAIMS

Some articles on Science & religion and related subjects

SCIENCE & RELIGION ''INTRO''

SCIENCE & RELIGION

SCIENCE & RELIGION COMPATIBLE?


Brightnorm

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ... I am so fascinated by this thread!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif ... I love where you guys have taken this... as it all really does make alot of sense to me... well... except for Charles' conversation with Gabriel... but that's for another time. For now, this is awesome! ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Ok... so where does intelligence fit into all this? And for that matter, LACK of intelligence? And let's go one step further... what do we consider to be "intelligence"? Perhaps to those worms at the bottom of the sea, we humans are really, really stupid! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It didn't have to make much sense. It was to show that Creation is much bigger and far more complex than most Earth Humans realize. It also show how there are 2 different kinds of evolution. It also shows how Creation and evolution work together, rather than being mutually exclusive.

Evolution of Spirit: Growth through learning and experiencing many things, which takes more than one incarnation.

Physical Evolution: a process of change, and adaptation to external conditions in the case of Life forms.

In both types, it is a process of change, although the type of change is different. Spirits are eternal, while physical is not. Everyone knows the this Planet is always changing via a variety of physical processes. This is Planetary Evolution.

The mistake is the assumption that physical evolution must be to a higher form. Nature will try any solution. The only criteria is that it must survive and pass the changes down the line. Some solutions meet this criteria and some don't.

Man may be intelligent, but Wisdom sure is lacking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Man sure is arrogant enough to state that intelligence is only based on the use of technology (tools and such). Also only recognizing Life as on Earth as the only kind. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

To some here, I am no doubt regarded as perhaps The Devil himself. To others, I am merely a nutcase, and perhaps a dangerous one. Others may think I have valid points. No doubt there are those who wish that I would either leave CPF, or hope that I am barred from this site permanently.

 

[McGizmo]

Brightnorm,

Thanks for the links!