How many lumens is enough lumens?

rmteo

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Re: Lumens and lux

Looks like only one poster (mookins) understands the issue. It is all about lux (intensity) and not about lumens.
 

markr6

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Re: Lumens and lux

I rarely find myself going beyond the 400 lumens on my PD32UE. Just depends on the situation. I think most of the previous responses cover each specific task well.
 

JCD

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Re: Lumens and lux

Looks like only one poster (mookins) understands the issue. It is all about lux (intensity) and not about lumens.

It's primarily about lux if you're looking at something. It's primarily about lumens if you're looking for something (or navigating).
 
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Lou Minescence

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There seems to be a certain balance between lux, throw, and lumens people expect. The exact balance would be subjective to each person.
I expect a big lumen light to have a high lux value and a longer throw. That may not always be true but that is what I would expect.
Enough lumens ? Never enough !
But I say 800 lumens, 300 - 400 meters throw with 20k lux is good.
 

JCD

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Re: Lumens and lux

It's primarily about lux if you're looking at something. It's primarily about lumens if you're looking for something (or navigating)
Really?? How so??

At any given level of luminous flux, increasing illuminance (unit: lux) means that more of the total light is being concentrated into a particular area. We think of this as the hotspot. So if the hotspot gets smaller, the illuminance increases. That's great if we are looking at something, because we already know where we need to point our light to see what we want or need to see. We can get away with very little luminous flux if it is concentrated into a sufficiently small area.

If we are looking for something, then we don't know where we need to point the light to see the object of interest. A small hotspot just makes it difficult to search, since a smaller area is illuminated. In such cases, instead of concentrating our light, we want to spread it around a large area area, which decreases illuminance. Because we want to illuminate a larger area, we need increased luminous flux (unit: lumen), even if we don't want or need high illuminance.

Intuitively, we know that a light that is all throw with no spill is useless for walking through an unfamiliar forest. Likewise, a flood light isn't useful if we want to get a good look at an object 150 meters away.

Illuminance and luminous flux are closely related. We can't have one without the other. Sometimes we want to maximize illuminance, given our level of luminous flux. Other times we want to minimize illuminance, given our level of luminous flux. For most tasks, it is desirable to neither maximize nor minimize illuminance, since this allows us greater versatility with our light.
 

Colonel Sanders

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Re: Lumens and lux

How many lumens is enough? :thinking: Well, I'm up to over 17,000 with one of my lights....I'll let you know if I ever reach "enough". :candle:
 

Burgess

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Re: Lumens and lux

:candle:


For *me* . . . .

-- Indoors: 10 Lumens (or less) is quite sufficient for most tasks


-- Outdoors: (i live in a very rural area) 10 Lumens for walking around.

And 100+ Lumens if i hear a " WhatTheHellWasTHAT ? " noise !
 

StarHalo

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Re: Lumens and lux

-- Indoors: 10 Lumens (or less) is quite sufficient for most tasks

Yup, you never really get beyond medium mode indoors, with the majority of use on low.

And I don't like anything over ~5000 lux in an EDC; a big, broad beam is best for general use.
 

jwrebate

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A few points and an illustrative story:

The great thing about LED lights today is that we have a choice of output in a single flashlight. in the "olden days" (10-20 years ago) of flashlight technology, variation in incandescent output involved changing light bulbs. In other words, if you wanted the option to put out 10, 50, and 200 lumens, you carried 3 lights unless you had a fancy surefire with a main bulb and a secondary high output bulb. The fact that current LED lights can be programmed to put out any level of light (of course limited maximally by the led emitter itself and the power source) represents an incredible step forward in flashlight technology.

If you are using rechargables and are not in a "survival type" situation, I see absolutely no reason why you should purposely select a light that has a lower maximum output of less than X lumens. If you have a flashlight that can put out 50000000 lumens but also has a low mode of 5 lumens, you don't have to use the insanely bright max mode, BUT YOU ALWAYS HAVE THAT OPTION. Options are good.

Now the story

Case in point, I was taking a walk with my mom around our city one night where a fair amount of construction was going on. I was carrying my edc, a 4 sevens quark 123^2 with an XML LED and pushing 350 OTF lumens. I was using the low mode at the time for general navigation (no streetlights due to the construction) I was crossing the street (lined on both sides with concrete construction barriers) at a red light when a man in a mercedes talking on his cell phone drinking a soft drink and looking at his GPS comes barreling around a curve in the road at about 55 MPH (speed limit is 40 and he doesn't even notice the red light). I didn't have time to get out of the way completely but I did have time to twist the head on the light with my thumb and forefinger bringing up the max 350 lumens. One split second tap on the reverse clicky and the light was in strobe mode. The driver slammed on the brakes and managed to hit me gently enough to cause only a hairline fracture in my ulna and some moderate bruising and swelling on my arm and leg. I am convinced that I would not be writing this post today if I did not have a light bright enough to make the @#$hole pay attention to me and stop. I did not need the 350 lumens on that walk, until I REALLY needed it.


The moral of the story can be summed up in an old saying:

Its better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

PS: The flashlight also hit the car and was knocked out of my hand and onto the ground. Like me the light was also banged up but ok and still functioning! It rides in my pocket every day like a trusted friend
 

Burgess

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to jwrebate --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !


:welcome:


Glad to hear your story had a happy ending.


Stay safe.
 

inetdog

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I am convinced that I would not be writing this post today if I did not have a light bright enough to make the @#$hole pay attention to me and stop.

Reminds me of a bicycle tail light discussion ages ago. One friend was in favor of the leg-attached moving light or the blinking rear light "so a driver can tell that it is a bicycle."
Other friend, who was a high power advocate before the LED and CandlePower days, replied "I don't want the driver to think I am a bicycle. I want him to think that I am a motorcycle, or even better a semi, so that he will try to avoid hitting me."
 

TEEJ

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Re: Lumens and lux

Looks like only one poster (mookins) understands the issue. It is all about lux (intensity) and not about lumens.

LOL

REALLY?

You might want to scroll through and recount again.

:D
 

TEEJ

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A few points and an illustrative story:

The great thing about LED lights today is that we have a choice of output in a single flashlight. in the "olden days" (10-20 years ago) of flashlight technology, variation in incandescent output involved changing light bulbs. In other words, if you wanted the option to put out 10, 50, and 200 lumens, you carried 3 lights unless you had a fancy surefire with a main bulb and a secondary high output bulb. The fact that current LED lights can be programmed to put out any level of light (of course limited maximally by the led emitter itself and the power source) represents an incredible step forward in flashlight technology.

If you are using rechargables and are not in a "survival type" situation, I see absolutely no reason why you should purposely select a light that has a lower maximum output of less than X lumens. If you have a flashlight that can put out 50000000 lumens but also has a low mode of 5 lumens, you don't have to use the insanely bright max mode, BUT YOU ALWAYS HAVE THAT OPTION. Options are good.

Now the story

Case in point, I was taking a walk with my mom around our city one night where a fair amount of construction was going on. I was carrying my edc, a 4 sevens quark 123^2 with an XML LED and pushing 350 OTF lumens. I was using the low mode at the time for general navigation (no streetlights due to the construction) I was crossing the street (lined on both sides with concrete construction barriers) at a red light when a man in a mercedes talking on his cell phone drinking a soft drink and looking at his GPS comes barreling around a curve in the road at about 55 MPH (speed limit is 40 and he doesn't even notice the red light). I didn't have time to get out of the way completely but I did have time to twist the head on the light with my thumb and forefinger bringing up the max 350 lumens. One split second tap on the reverse clicky and the light was in strobe mode. The driver slammed on the brakes and managed to hit me gently enough to cause only a hairline fracture in my ulna and some moderate bruising and swelling on my arm and leg. I am convinced that I would not be writing this post today if I did not have a light bright enough to make the @#$hole pay attention to me and stop. I did not need the 350 lumens on that walk, until I REALLY needed it.


The moral of the story can be summed up in an old saying:

Its better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

PS: The flashlight also hit the car and was knocked out of my hand and onto the ground. Like me the light was also banged up but ok and still functioning! It rides in my pocket every day like a trusted friend

Glad you're OK-ish!

If you'd had the light on say 4,000 lumens, and simply swung it up at him, he might have even seen you soon enough to not hit you at all of course...as the time to stop from 55 mph (~88 feet per second) is critical.

:D
 

JCD

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Reminds me of a bicycle tail light discussion ages ago. One friend was in favor of the leg-attached moving light or the blinking rear light "so a driver can tell that it is a bicycle."
Other friend, who was a high power advocate before the LED and CandlePower days, replied "I don't want the driver to think I am a bicycle. I want him to think that I am a motorcycle, or even better a semi, so that he will try to avoid hitting me."

I used to subscribe to the philosophy of "other friend" until a far too close call motivated me to reevaluate my rear lighting configuration. Both philosophies have merit, depending on the riding environment.

When the speed limit is high relative to cycling speed, it is important that motorists approaching from behind can tell from a distance that they are approaching a bicycle so they can anticipate closing the gap much more quickly than if it were a motorcycle or car. (Blinking lights should be supplemented with constant on lights to make distance easier to gauge for approaching motorists.)

When speed limits and cycling speeds are closer, bright, constant on lights help cyclists command more respect from motorists.

Like with most things, there is no single practice that is best for all situations.
 

reppans

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^^ Now that's a great observation! Thanks for sharing it.
 

TEEJ

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Very true.

As a light source in of itself has no scale, and if assumed to be from a larger source (Truck, etc) then a smaller source will be interpreted as further away. For example: There are cases where a driver saw another car's reverse lights, and thought they were distant headlights, and that they had more time before they approaching car would get to them......only to find that they were MUCH closer reverse lights, too late to avoid a collision.

For this reason, adding the lighting of the TERRAIN is best for approaching motorists, as they see the CONTEXT of the approaching obstacles. IE: A scale to the object is provided, and appropriate reaction time can be more accurate. If they see the bike and the road/curb/curve/intersection etc, they have the best chance of correctly deciding on what degree of swerving, braking, etc, would be better. A brightly lit area draws attention, as the eye naturally goes to the "hot spot". Adding a beacon and/or strobe to the terrain lighting FURTHER draws the eye to it, as motion also attracts attention.

If the light illuminates the bike itself, that allows a sense of scale (They know about how big a bike is...) and therefore a sense of distance to it. If the terrain is also illuminated, its adds information as to what they might hit or miss if they try to avoid the bike, as well as adding a larger attention getting area to get their attention in the first place, and so forth.
 

Slidder

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I subscribe to jwrebates comment "Its better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"

After reading through this thread, and as a noob, is there a flashlight out there that can do both, 1) flood > wide dispursement for walking distances up close and 2) throw > narrower when you need to see further down the trail. Perhaps a head that you can rotate to go from wide to narrower, or do you need two, one that can go wide, another for distance. Any suggestions ???
 

Slidder

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A floody light with a very high high mode; that's why the Zebralights are so popular.

When you say high mode are you referring to something like 8-900 -- lumens OTF or even more.

Appreciate your responce
 
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