New bike light on kickstarter-Barry Beams

[SemiMan]

Which NDA is he using on potential customers and lighting enthusiasts?

One that my lawyer would never let me sign as is for one.

Two, I never sign one way NDAs that are sent to me or my company.

Three, one that would prevent me from making any comment about anything....


Considering there is far more value to Barry in my providing a positive independent review of his product than me signing the NDA which carries 0 value for me, I am obviously not going to sign it.

The Kickstarter sign up has slowed considerably. It would make sense to garner positive feedback in order to drive traffic and sign ups.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

The Kickstarter sign up has slowed considerably. It would make sense to garner positive feedback in order to drive traffic and sign ups.

Clearly our questioning his awesomeness scared away all his money. Who wants to take bets on the time for lawyer threat letters? Defamation of business practices or somesuch.

 

[charlie_r]

Clearly our questioning his awesomeness scared away all his money. Who wants to take bets on the time for lawyer threat letters? Defamation of business practices or somesuch.

Probably already in the works.

 

[SemiMan]

This stream is actually in the first page of Google responses if you do a search on Barry Beams. There is a possibility that someone who looks at the Kickstarter page and considers an investment will come across this stream. I generally take things I read on the internet with a grain of salt as they may, but my belief is the perceived lack of openness and unwillingness to address performance statements we justifiably question as well as address other shortcomings we perceive will be the bigger thing that sways them negatively.

If this is a superior product, that is unfortunate, as the market could use a good reasonably price bike light. However, we have no ability based on published information to make a judgement that this product is superior and we have valid concerns based on published information that there may be issues.

The "abilities" of several of us have been "questioned" by Barry on this thread, "yet not contact me directly for simples answers. The amusing speculations and "must be" assertions take conventional wisdom to extremes." You will note that I contacted him directly and as opposed to a "simple answer", I was given a multiple page NDA.

If Barry is reading this, I hope he understands that many of us on CPF really do know what the heck we are doing with years or decades of lighting experience. I like helping entrepreneurs and would gladly provide a quotable reference on a product if the quality is there and meets the marketing claims.

 

[Esko]

understand a friendly hint like 'One needs to read the entirety of a regulation in order to be able to correctly interpret it.'

It looks like I have had neither time nor interest to study foreign regulations written in foreign language, and since you only gave hints and an impression that you know better (but you didn't give actual data), we'll never know the actual details.

Regarding the BarryBeam light, it surely doesn't look very promising in Kickstarter. A week to go, just over 40% of the sum backed. However, there is an update:

Exciting update, as of 10/15/2012, a major bicycle equipment company signed a marketing and distribution agreement, once the lights are made. This means that:
+ Deals I had ready to go with vendors who already supply and manufacture for large electronics companies are now moving forward.
+ The added assistance from this new partner now makes its quite likely that even if this project's funding goal is not reached, you will get your light.

If that is correct, the lights will be manufactured anyway, and they can also be bought later (when there are reviews available). I guess there is no need for him to communicate with us any more, at least not before the light is released. We'll see what happens.

 

[SemiMan]

signed ...once the lights are made. Is it just me or does that not make sense? Did they sign it or are they only going to sign it once the lights are made? How many lights are we talking here? Unless you are making 10's of thousands, this is not the realm of companies who manufacture for "large electronics companies". If that is the case, that is great for Barry and more power to him, but some clarity please.

If I am not mistaken, unless the Kickstarter goal is reached, the Kickstarter is dead and no money changes hands, hence "you will NOT get your light", unless you buy it from a store at some date in the future.

Semiman

 

[Marcturus]

(...) unless you buy it from a store at some date in the future.

You mean, possibly pay more, but actually deal with regular-clueless, professional sales staff who are just out to make a buck and keep a customer? Fine with me. Get a chance to see comparative tests before buying? Cool! No NDA to sign? Excellent! Bring it on, Barry!


@to the casual users of icons it may concern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollice_verso

 

[Esko]

If I am not mistaken, unless the Kickstarter goal is reached, the Kickstarter is dead and no money changes hands, hence "you will NOT get your light", unless you buy it from a store at some date in the future.

No money changes hands through Kickstarter, but surely he can contact all backers and sell the light directly.

@Esko: No spoon-feeding, sour grapes: predictable. Some day, maybe you will get a chance to ask your teacher about plugging sequences of letters and spaces into search and translation engines.

As mentioned on the startpage of candlepowerforums.com, this is "the largest and friendliest flashlight community in the world." We have a university professor with vast amount of contributions and who is discussing about giving his lecture slides on human perception for us, for free. Meantime we have also you, who just said I am wrong, but refused to tell us how things actually are. Just gave some little hints where to start to look for myself. I.e. you wrote a sentence or two, and then I am supposed to spend perhaps an evening or two with unreliable translation machines to find out whether you were right or wrong? After all, I need to understand the entirety of the regulation (as hinted in your first answer). I am tired of arrogant self-proclaimed experts, whether they are fake or real. They are the sour grapes of discussion forums, they kill all meaningful discussion.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

No money changes hands through Kickstarter, but surely he can contact all backers and sell the light directly.

Well, I'm going to stay on topic here. It turns out that there have been cases where money changed hands under questionable circumstances on KickStarter. Allegedly, nobody has been ripped of yet. Nobody wants to assert that BB may default on this. But since you asked...

VentureBeat story on just this. In theory, the kickstarter Terms of Service implies (But does not state directly) that a Project Creator should give a refund if they are unable or unwilling to deliver rewards. So in theory getting up to 'reward' status gives you more protection. Their blog says that the responsibility lies with the Project Creator to satisfy unfinished but funded projects.

When one creates a kickstarter project, you're required to click on a box that says "If you don't give refunds people's opinions of you will be lowered, or they may take legal action." But your only defense in this case would be to lawyer up.

 

[Esko]

Well, I'm going to stay on topic here. It turns out that there have been cases where money changed hands under questionable circumstances on KickStarter. Allegedly, nobody has been ripped of yet. Nobody wants to assert that BB may default on this. But since you asked...

VentureBeat story on just this. In theory, the kickstarter Terms of Service implies (But does not state directly) that a Project Creator should give a refund if they are unable or unwilling to deliver rewards. So in theory getting up to 'reward' status gives you more protection. Their blog says that the responsibility lies with the Project Creator to satisfy unfinished but funded projects.

When one creates a kickstarter project, you're required to click on a box that says "If you don't give refunds people's opinions of you will be lowered, or they may take legal action." But your only defense in this case would be to lawyer up.

We are talking about apples and oranges here. If your funding goal is not reached (or the project is cancelled or suspended before the funding deadline), you will get nothing. If your funding goal is reached, you will get everything. Now, if your funding was successful but you can't (or don't want to) deliver what you promised AND don't want to refund the backers, then we have a problem. And this is the case where Kickstarter wants to deny it's liability.

Regarding the BarryBeam light, if the funding goal is not reached, the backers keep their money and they don't get any lights. However, if they still like to buy the light and Barry wants to manufacture and sell them, he can contact the the former backers via email and sell the light directly.

 

[lampeDépêche]

Esko wrote, "... learned, that indeed there is no upper limits to the power."
CORRECT! Case closed. Anything more about this, in THIS thread, is off-topic.
Keep whining and expressing your sense of entitlement. I don't care.

Marcturus, this is very strange behavior. I don't know you, and I don't know Esko either. But I have been hanging out on this board for over a year now, and I have never seen anyone speak so rudely to another forum member as you are speaking to him.

I wonder if perhaps you don't realize how insulting you are being, and how out of proportion it is to the conversation you are having? Is English perhaps not your native language?

If so, then it might help you to be told: your language in this thread has been ridiculously, excessively, rude.

And for no discernible reason! Everyone else is having a nice conversation about bike lights. Conversations sometimes include requests for help or clarification. People here on the forums help each other, and are generally happy to share what they know.

But while everyone else on the forum is being helpful, you are being extremely rude. I have to assume that your internal social calibrator has just fallen out of adjustment. Trying dialing it down a few notches.

 

[Esko]

It looks like the Barry Beams will be produced. The target wasn't reached, but the project is reposted with a much lower funding target which is already reached.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/barrybeams/the-future-of-bike-lighting-by-barry-beams

The dynamics in Kickstarter projects is rather interesting. One would think that the target is determined according to the financial calculations. How many products must be manufactured in order to make the project feasible? Well, in his messages Barry did talk about thousand backers making the light possible. The original target, however, was ~$50k (ie. roughly 500 lights). The new target is $12600 (i.e. 100+ lights). This is already reached.

Of course, the Kickstarter project might be more on the marketing side. After all, he is also presenting a heatsink source with the description: "Hard tool steel mold for the light weight heatsink and light head. This tooling alone cost more than many new cars." In other words, he has already spent tens of thousands of dollars on the project. A lot more than the new target.

Well, good luck with your project, Barry.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Of course, the Kickstarter project might be more on the marketing side. After all, he is also presenting a heatsink source with the description: "Hard tool steel mold for the light weight heatsink and light head. This tooling alone cost more than many new cars." In other words, he has already spent tens of thousands of dollars on the project. A lot more than the new target..

Best luck, indeed. I wonder if he's accounted for the differences between his prototypes and what these molds will produce? Ah well.

I'm most troubled that someone can apparently "re-target" their kickstarter project goal to get money anyway.

 

[Steve K]

100 lights is the goal? Man... that's hardly anything at all! From what I've seen on work related projects, injection molded plastic doesn't become financially viable until quantities are up to 10,000/yr or more. Has there been a change in tooling methods? I know that there is such a thing as prototype tooling for molding, where it's not expected to last very long. What's the cost of this? Regular production tooling that was used on some small electronic sensors would run around $10k.

I hope Barry can afford the project. In the business world, a good analysis at the beginning would steer you away from a project that wouldn't turn a profit. For a hobbyist or budding entrepreneur, there's a greater tolerance for risk, or a lesser understanding of what the risks are.

Out of curiosity, what bike light manufacturers got started on a small scale like this and managed to stay in business for a number of years and a few product cycles? Maybe Dinotte? Lupine?? I really don't know their histories, but they seem like candidates. The Dinotte design seems like a classic for low production volumes.... a relatively simple housing that can be produced by a local machine shop. Not cheap, but a lot cheaper than the tooling costs for injection molded housings. The challenge for the second generation of product is adding features, improving performance, or reducing cost.

 

[kuksul08]

My only experience with injection molding was that a mold that could sustain tens of thousands of parts was a $25k initial cost, plus $10k yearly maintenance/replacement cost. Not cheap at all. He might be better off 3D printing them with SLA, at least the first models.

 

[bikelighting]

If you read the project,
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/barrybeams/the-future-of-bike-lighting-by-barry-beams
you will see my use and transition of stereolithography and CNC machining for r&d over to injection molded parts for production. The number you state for injection molding are +/- 75% at best. As shown on Kickstarter, there are also an injection molded battery cover and bottom cover. Nor is Asian molding always the best solution. The American individual in a garage and small family run tooling and specialty shops are the best combination of quality, value, and service.
Not sure where the 100 light goal comes from, unless you overlook that Kickstart funding is only part of my financing. Though difficult to prepare and administer a Kickstarter, my out of pocket plus seed funding to get this far was far tougher to come by. To get a design project approved on Kickstarter, they require a minimum viable prototype that already will leave the inventors $25k to $250k or more in the hole if they truly do have a near production ready design. The significant Kickstarter failures are projects that show a good prototype but don't have a near production ready design. Kickstarter finally banned deceptive renditions and animations that mislead people to thinking its a real product.

I'll be exhibiting at San Francisco Bicycle Expo this weekend if any of you want to stop by.
Barry

My only experience with injection molding was that a mold that could sustain tens of thousands of parts was a $25k initial cost, plus $10k yearly maintenance/replacement cost. Not cheap at all. He might be better off 3D printing them with SLA, at least the first models.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Hi Barry. How did the expo go? Thank you kindly,
-Snaily

 

[Esko]

It looks like Barry has broken the ~2 month silence and updated his KS page. The update is visible for backers only but Q&A section seems to contain much of that information. Which is manufacturing problems, unreliable partners trying to steal IP (some presented with names), and a need for extra $50K, which, however, is not a problem for backers (according to Barry). It also seems to be that the major bicycle company is not with the project any more and Barry is selling the light through his own web sites.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/barrybeams/the-future-of-bike-lighting-by-barry-beams/comments

 

[Steve K]

Interesting... I'd rather hear that Barry's design was a real breakthrough that benefits mankind and his investors all come out ahead, but this was probably more likely.

As much as I enjoy designing and making stuff, I know that I would have to have a really novel/clever idea in order to compete with established companies with fairly deep pockets and experienced staff/suppliers. The Magnic light strikes me as something sufficiently clever to have a chance at being commercially successful. The info that Barry has released so far hasn't struck me as being an advance over other commercially available lights (I could be wrong). I hope he hasn't invested anything that he couldn't afford to lose.

 

[2xTrinity]

Interesting... I'd rather hear that Barry's design was a real breakthrough that benefits mankind and his investors all come out ahead, but this was probably more likely.

As much as I enjoy designing and making stuff, I know that I would have to have a really novel/clever idea in order to compete with established companies with fairly deep pockets and experienced staff/suppliers. The Magnic light strikes me as something sufficiently clever to have a chance at being commercially successful. The info that Barry has released so far hasn't struck me as being an advance over other commercially available lights (I could be wrong). I hope he hasn't invested anything that he couldn't afford to lose.

I believe his does looks a lot better than nearly every currently commerically available options -- though that's largely an indictment on the poor state of the industry as far as bike lights go. User-swappable non proprietary LiIon cell is a huge plus. AFAIK there's only one other product on the market very expensive bike light from Philips with a 5+ year outdated LED that even attempts to shape the beam into a vehicular pattern.