Recharging Energizer Ultimate Lithiums - Controlled experiments

[Slazmo]

That was very lucky. Someone on this forum charged a Saft 14500 thinking it was a lithium ion cell and as I recall it exploded so violently it near destroyed his kitchen.

A guy was charging a NiCd battery from his battery drill a few suburbs from me, the battery exploded in the shed, and the house went up with it shortly after that. The family was lucky enough to get out before the whole house came down...

Another story came from Motormouth magazine where one of the tech's was recharging a battery bank from a Toyota Prius - the batteries went 'poof' and near took his house down in the middle of the night also...

I've herd a few story with Lithiums - the battery university website "http://www.batteryuniversity.com/" may be a good lead to further study.

 

[GordoJones88]

well.

 

[sxl168]

Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated! I've just been busy with other things. Recharging dead cells is most definitely pointless as I was never able to get them to accept all that much of a charge before they started trying to self discharge via dendrites. I still have those tested cells outside in that box yet and show no signs of leakage or deformation and they are sitting at about 1.6 volts but not much capacity. I just got ahold of a recent set though from an old light that someone tossed out and they are 1.68 volts open circuit which should be >50% charge. I'm going to try charging one of those and see what it does.

 

[sxl168]

Oops, I meant to say the cells are reading 1.76 volts OC which is nearly fully charged and upon trying the first cell at 60 mA, it charged to 2.1 volts in an hour, so these are indeed new cells I got ahold of for free...a great find! I'm not going to bother with trying to charge the remaining ones.

 

[HighlanderNorth]

The members who do not have any constructive posts should not waste their time and the OPs by writing on this topic. It has been said that there are safety issues and no useful information can come out of it so stop repeating the same things.

The OP agrees with the safety issues and clearly wants to know if the data collected is useful or not. He has taken the necessary precautions to avoid injury to himself and to others. Why post time and time again that this is dangerous is beyond my comprehension.

Be constructive or don't post.

Actually, I see it as being VERY constructive to tell someone not to do something dangerous. If if they dont get it the first time, then maybe they need to be told again. Its called "harm reduction." If I see a thread where people are talking about "experimenting" with "bath salts" or other research chemicals, I'd hope that everyone who reads it tells that person NOT TO DO IT! Often redundancy is a good thing. Apparently its necessary in this case too......

Dont you and the guy who posted the OP think that just maybe the battery companies have already looked into this? Wouldnt you assume that they would be recharging Lithium batteries if they thought it was a great idea, and very safe? It stands to reason that they DONT do this for justifiable reasons.

There are plenty of safe experiments you can try on youtube.

 

[magellan]

Just discovered this old thread looking for information on lithium ion primaries. Interesting thread, especially the stuff on recharging and the accidents.

 

[daan_deurloo]

Well i had tried to recharge Primary Lithium batteries once and yes they did heat up, even after they got taken out of the charger. But they didn't vent with flame tho. They both did read 0v under load and about 1.5~1.6v Open Circuit. I did took out the insides ( Lithium metal ) to use with water which gives a nice reaction. Still have 2 Lithium primary's in my keyboard now for a year. I may gonna recharge them anywhere soon on NiZn mode ( 1.9v termination ). And 63ma at the last stage of charging. Starts out with 750ma, then 255ma.

 

[more_vampires]

2 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells from his portable GPS unit that he had drained and I figured I would do some research and experimentation. I measured the voltage on each cell and one of them was completely dead at 1.5 volts open circuit and dropped to 0 under load. The other was at 1.65 volts yet and was still able to produce a bit of current yet.
...
The mostly dead cell charged up mirroring the discharge curve and terminated after 6 days, which indicates that nearly the entire cell capacity went in. The completely discharged cell was charging up at 0.1 to 0.2 volts higher than the other one and it was fluctuating where it would increase and then decrease, increase, decrease in voltage over and over again as it charged. After 7 days, this cell too finally charged up, but I think its suffering from partial internal leakage as the OCV slowly decreases over time over several days from 2.25 volts to 2.0 volts.

OP, you are describing a lithium battery concept often referred to as a "mismatched set." You might get away using them separately, but they are now unsuitable to be paired in a circuit.

One time I experimented with charging lithium primaries.
...
I was holding the cells while I was touching a wire to them. As I'm touching a wire to one cell, I notice a red glow right around the seal on the positive end. Time enough to drop the cell and close my eyes before it popped. There was a loud bang, like a firecracker, and my workroom filled with white smoke. For a minute I thought I was blind, at least until I went out of the room, washed my face, and opened my eyes. When the smoke cleared, there was some black stuff on the ceiling. I found the can of the cell intact, but completely empty. After that experience, I'm not even keen on using regular Li-ions. LiFePO4 cells are my preferred choice nowadays.

JTR is describing what's going to happen to a mismatched set. One battery dies first (mismatched capacity) and the other battery goes into "reverse charge mode."

This leads to smoke, fire, and lung damage. Don't breathe the smoke, glad OP is doing it outside. I wouldn't bring those batteries indoors, ever... IMHO.

When you blow a lithium-anything battery indoors, you're actually supposed to call HAZMAT. There is an airborne hazard.

Stay safe everyone. This seems rather a dangerous topic.

 

[daan_deurloo]

Just took out my 2 Lithium batteries out of my keyboard and my charger recognized them as NiZn and charger did read 1,75V on both and did took a few seconds to reach 1,88v ( max ). So they were still full.

Recharging depleted lithium batteries ? Please don't do that. They will heat up after about 10 seconds ( Experience ). Even after they have been taken out of the charger. Since they were fully depleted, they didn't have any chance to vent with a flame.

 

[RCM]

Just took out my 2 Lithium batteries out of my keyboard and my charger recognized them as NiZn and charger did read 1,75V on both and did took a few seconds to reach 1,88v ( max ).

Even though it was only a few seconds, I wouldn't use them now...

 

[more_vampires]

Even though it was only a few seconds, I wouldn't use them now...

I agree. This is a known "bad to do" thing.

 

[daan_deurloo]

Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all ( If they are not depleted, but somewhere at around 1,7v. I'm planning to use NiMh batteries in the keyboard tho.

 

[RCM]

Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all ( If they are not depleted, but somewhere at around 1,7v. I'm planning to use NiMh batteries in the keyboard tho.

You got lucky..I wouldn't trust them for something high drain now

 

[ForrestChump]

I can see if people want to "experiment", thats fine.

Although to do this and use anything that was involved in an "experiment", in a normal operating capacity, is a ridiculously unwise decision, to put it nicely.

 

[more_vampires]

Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all

Respectfully sir, this is a logical fallacy. Doing known dangerous things is not safe because nothing has happened yet... to you.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/primary_batteriesBattery University points out that lithium primaries have MORE energy packed into them than lithium-ion rechargeable secondaries. We know that lions can burst and do damage. Bursting lithium primaries can cause even more damage. BU says they are not rechargeable. IMHO, recharging primaries is like playing Russian Roulette.

Batteries are cheap. Your eyeballs and lungs are expensive.

I can see if people want to "experiment", thats fine.
Although to do this and use anything that was involved in an "experiment", in a normal operating capacity, is a ridiculously unwise decision, to put it nicely.

FC and I agree 1000%.

 

[daan_deurloo]

They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).

These cells i had are about €9,- for 4 pieces.

 

[RCM]

Respectfully sir, this is a logical fallacy. Doing known dangerous things is not safe because nothing has happened yet... to you.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/primary_batteriesBattery University points out that lithium primaries have MORE energy packed into them than lithium-ion rechargeable secondaries. We know that lions can burst and do damage. Bursting lithium primaries can cause even more damage. BU says they are not rechargeable. IMHO, recharging primaries is like playing Russian Roulette.

Batteries are cheap. Your eyeballs and lungs are expensive.

FC and I agree 1000%.

Also not a good idea to give newbies to lithium primary cells ideas like this

They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).

Just becauase they weren't cheap doesn't mean it's a good idea, just don't do it or you risk a violent vent

 

[daan_deurloo]

I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.

 

[RCM]

I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.

And you are risking that by trying that

 

[more_vampires]

They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).

These cells i had are about €9,- for 4 pieces.

I view the Energizer Ultimate Lithiums as cheap for what you get based on this:
1. No alkaline leaks, pays for itself in saving one single light by not leaking.
2. Lighter weight, carry more.
3. Cold tolerance, relaxed storage.
4. Energy density and capacity
5. Price per energy unit
6. Top notch shelf life.
7. Quality product.
In cost per energy, they aren't really expensive.

I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.

Did the videos explain how you should expose yourself to the vent gasses?

Read the threads about people getting hurt in a vent scenario? It can be pretty bad, sir. Take care.