This fire just cost Tesla $2.5 billion

idleprocess

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I'm keeping my phrasing here as neutral as possible so as to avoid thread closure

Note that most of the major automakers now have at least one all electric model. Within a decade gas cars will be the minority in showrooms. The fact is with gas prices going nowhere but up electric cars are an increasingly attractive proposition. Once cost is on par with gas cars, and range is 200 to 500 miles, most people will choose electric for their next car.
Some of this has to do with CA ZEV mandates, the federal tax credit, and - of course - consumer demand. I believe that "within a decade" is a bit optimistic for demand to reach majority status - the production cost issue is a tough nut to crack and the demand side is still limited. There are other problems with rapid uptake, such as the lack of charging for those without private garages and a similar lack of charging at work where their vehicle will spend many hours a day. Given the immense expense that Tesla goes through to make >200 mile range vehicles, it may be some time until BEV's hit something close to "range-cost parity" with ICE vehicles. An alternative would be the strong-parallel hybrid concept ala the Volt, but that's another cost problem that's not easy to solve.

Helping things along will be increasingly stringent air pollution standards, especially in large cities. Once a large city like New York passes ZEV requirements for any vehicles operating within its limits others will follow suit.
I suspect that without supermajority consensus and a graceful rollout period, such regulation would be the stuff of explosive litigation and recall elections.

As for oil, there will always be a huge demand for it [...]
Indeed. Long-haul overland, air, and sea transportation looks to be the domain of liquid fuels for some time - and petroleum is the cheapest liquid fuel source by far. This is to say nothing for its use as a feedstock for organic chemistry, fertilizer, etc.

[...] even if we electrified the transportation system.
With $Trillions invested in the infrastructure for liquid fuels, there will be incentive to keep using them so long as supply is there at a reasonable price. Short of the railroads and a slice of the personal auto sector, it's difficult to envision electrification of other forms of transport.
 

BVH

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I retired 5 years ago of managing a 600 unit fleet. Over the preceding 10 years, I went from zero clean air units to about 50 clean air units. I'm not including any Ethanol Pseudo clean air units. We didn't waste our time with these. The units included natural gas fueled, hydrogen gas fueled, full electrics including a few near-full size transit buses, and hybrids. We really got into it and built our own natural gas station and 350 Bar Hydrogen gas station - making our own Hydrogen on-site thru electrolysis. The station is now 700 BAR. Those stations were and are open to the public. I really enjoyed being able to dabble in these technologies without having to pay for it out of my pocket. (Well, I did live in the City and pay taxes so I did contribute to the cost of the program) I am still skeptical of any near-future takeover by alternate fuel vehicles. On the flip side, I'd get right in-line for a similar cost, similar options, 350 + mile range full electric car if charging station infrastructure and quick-charge times became a reality. I think it's at least 25 years away, if at all. I'll have been scattered to the wind by the time it happens, I think.
 

jtr1962

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Some of this has to do with CA ZEV mandates, the federal tax credit, and - of course - consumer demand. I believe that "within a decade" is a bit optimistic for demand to reach majority status - the production cost issue is a tough nut to crack and the demand side is still limited.
The high production cost of EVs is largely due to lack of economy of scale. If we were to build EVs in similar numbers as gas cars, they would actually cost less because they're far less complex. I think what we need to jump start the process is some major huge fleet going all electric and/or some local or state legislation which mandates a phase-in of ZEVs. I see a parallel here to CRTs and LCDs. I still recall people saying on message boards a decade ago that LCDs were never going to capture even half the market, and CRTs would still be with us in large numbers in 25 years. Well, it's ten years later and you can't even give away CRTs. I suspect the situation will be much the same with gas cars in a decade. People might not ditch their relatively new gas cars for electrics, but anyone in the market for a new vehicle probably won't be looking at anything other than electrics. If I had a need to drive even now I wouldn't be looking at anything other than electrics. The idea of "refueling" in the driveway is just too nice to ignore, not to mention gas prices are only going one way in the long term.

There are other problems with rapid uptake, such as the lack of charging for those without private garages and a similar lack of charging at work where their vehicle will spend many hours a day. Given the immense expense that Tesla goes through to make >200 mile range vehicles, it may be some time until BEV's hit something close to "range-cost parity" with ICE vehicles. An alternative would be the strong-parallel hybrid concept ala the Volt, but that's another cost problem that's not easy to solve.
One concept which shows a lot of promise is on-the-fly inductive charging. It's being tried for Formula E racing. If it works out, it may well by the key factor making electric vehicles mainstream.

I suspect that without supermajority consensus and a graceful rollout period, such regulation would be the stuff of explosive litigation and recall elections.
I have news for you. In NYC there is already a supermajority who doesn't drive or own a car. They would vote to ban cars altogether from city limits if a referendum ever came up. A ZEV mandate would easily pass in NYC. In the end a big factor in favor of ZEV mandates will be studies which show roughly ten times as many people die each year from the effects of vehicle pollution as from collisions. In the US that's about 300,000 a year. Worldwide it's some tens of millions. Health care costs are a growing concern. Anything which can be done to slow the growth of these costs is likely to be passed into law eventually, including ZEV mandates.

Indeed. Long-haul overland, air, and sea transportation looks to be the domain of liquid fuels for some time - and petroleum is the cheapest liquid fuel source by far. This is to say nothing for its use as a feedstock for organic chemistry, fertilizer, etc.


With $Trillions invested in the infrastructure for liquid fuels, there will be incentive to keep using them so long as supply is there at a reasonable price. Short of the railroads and a slice of the personal auto sector, it's difficult to envision electrification of other forms of transport.
I'm not seeing any alternative to liquid fuels for air transport, but there are several quite viable electrified alternatives to air travel. High-speed rail is time competitive with air on trips up to about 300 to 500 miles. Maglev in vacuum tubes has the potential to beat air over any distance although it will be at least a generation before a significant maglev system can be built.

Large ocean going vessels can be powered by wind if transit time isn't terribly important (i.e. bulk cargo), or nuclear power if it is. Railroads can obviously be electrified. In the final analysis most of our transportation system can be electrified within 25 years or so if we put our mind to it. The key factor here is the cost of liquid fuels. At current prices there is already significant incentive to move away from them. Price volatility is another reason. I don't have a crystal ball but I suspect in the short to medium term natural gas will increasingly take the place of petroleum or coal while electricity is being slowly phased in. We're already seeing that with power generation in the US. Large ships might be the next things to run on natural gas. Long term we're probably looking at maglev, railways, and motor vehicles all powered by electricity generated from a variety of sources, with fission/fusion/renewables generating an ever larger percentage of the grid power.
 

LEDninja

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range is 200 to 500 miles,
Ever wonder why EVs other than Tesla have such tiny batteries? Most people would have to upgrade their electrical service first.
I figure 15A 115V would provide 15KWh on a 10 hour overnight charge. That would mean 52 miles on a model S (or 60 miles on a tiny BMW i3). That is 17 miles out 17 miles home and 17 miles emergency reserve for the model S (20 miles out, 20 miles home 20 miles reserve for the i3). One reason the i3 and Nissan Leaf have batteries around 15 KWh.
-
Wonder why the small model S has a 60 KWh battery?
A 230V 30A line would give 60 KWh. That translates to 210 miles total. 70 miles out, 70 miles home and 70 miles reserve.
The 85 KWh battery will give you 100 miles out, 100 miles home, 100 miles reserve. The reserve if not used does not add to charging time.

But the superchargers will half charge a Tesla model S in half an hour. Except when Elon musk builds enough Teslas the lineups at those stations will be longer than at a gas station before a crises.
Maybe I can have a supercharger at home? Not unless you have 480V 3 phase power.
The battery is not the only bottleneck to EV range.
 

idleprocess

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Ever wonder why EVs other than Tesla have such tiny batteries? Most people would have to upgrade their electrical service first.
I figure 15A 115V would provide 15KWh on a 10 hour overnight charge. That would mean 52 miles on a model S (or 60 miles on a tiny BMW i3). That is 17 miles out 17 miles home and 17 miles emergency reserve for the model S (20 miles out, 20 miles home 20 miles reserve for the i3). One reason the i3 and Nissan Leaf have batteries around 15 KWh.
-
Wonder why the small model S has a 60 KWh battery?
A 230V 30A line would give 60 KWh. That translates to 210 miles total. 70 miles out, 70 miles home and 70 miles reserve.
The 85 KWh battery will give you 100 miles out, 100 miles home, 100 miles reserve. The reserve if not used does not add to charging time.
The battery is not the only bottleneck to EV range.
I'm not aware of anyone with an EV that routinely charges on 120V - with the possible exception of pluggable hybrids like the Volt and Prius, which have their engines for longer-range travel.

"A dryer outlet" is the common description for what it takes to charge an EV in a reasonable amount of time. I recall that most US homes have 100A * 240V service at the master breaker (I think 200A * 240V is common for newer construction), so using roughly a third of that to charge at ~7kW isn't going to take much more than the installation of a dedicated 240V outlet.
 

jtr1962

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Ever wonder why EVs other than Tesla have such tiny batteries? Most people would have to upgrade their electrical service first.
I figure 15A 115V would provide 15KWh on a 10 hour overnight charge. That would mean 52 miles on a model S (or 60 miles on a tiny BMW i3). That is 17 miles out 17 miles home and 17 miles emergency reserve for the model S (20 miles out, 20 miles home 20 miles reserve for the i3). One reason the i3 and Nissan Leaf have batteries around 15 KWh.
-
Wonder why the small model S has a 60 KWh battery?
A 230V 30A line would give 60 KWh. That translates to 210 miles total. 70 miles out, 70 miles home and 70 miles reserve.
The 85 KWh battery will give you 100 miles out, 100 miles home, 100 miles reserve. The reserve if not used does not add to charging time.

But the superchargers will half charge a Tesla model S in half an hour. Except when Elon musk builds enough Teslas the lineups at those stations will be longer than at a gas station before a crises.
Maybe I can have a supercharger at home? Not unless you have 480V 3 phase power.
The battery is not the only bottleneck to EV range.
There are a couple of other possibilities here. One is solar charging to supplement grid charging. A residential installation of solar panels can put out 10 or more kW. Another possibility is to use a stationary battery (which incidentally doubles as an emergency power source) which charges continuously, and can dump its load rapidly into an EV battery. Remember even with 200 to 500 mile range, the bulk of the time the EV user won't be charging a nearly depleted battery. Most of the time they'll just be topping off the battery after driving some tens of miles. Rapid charging really only comes into play on long trips which exceed the battery range. A third possibility is to charge on the fly via inductive pickup, essentially only using the battery to go between charging points. If you space charging points maybe 10 miles apart on highways, a battery with a range of 20 or 30 miles will easily suffice for trips of any length.

The logistics involved mainstreaming ICE vehicles represented larger hurdles than anything involving EVs, and yet they were overcome. Right now I feel lack of economy of scale is the biggest factor preventing massive uptake of EVs. Higher range would help also, but the truth is 100 mile range is sufficient for the vast majority of users.
 

DIΩDΣ

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Ever wonder why EVs other than Tesla have such tiny batteries? Most people would have to upgrade their electrical service first.
...
Maybe I can have a supercharger at home? Not unless you have 480V 3 phase power.
The battery is not the only bottleneck to EV range.

Agreed, in most cases it would require some kind of electrical upgrade, even if just installing a 'drier' plug in the garage.

The battery is an issue in other ways also though - cost for one. The battery is a significant chunk of the cost premium for electric I would think. Electric motors are fairly efficient so I would not expect any huge increases in performance due to motor technology - batteries are about the only thing that could be improved upon when it comes to performance.

I recall that most US homes have 100A * 240V service at the master breaker (I think 200A * 240V is common for newer construction), so using roughly a third of that to charge at ~7kW isn't going to take much more than the installation of a dedicated 240V outlet.

Yeah but just because it looks possible doesnt mean that it will work. Many houses could be maxed out already, much like mine, where all circuits are already full in my panel box, and an add on box has already been used for an addition that actually puts it in the needs upgraded already category. And make sure your electric furnace doesnt kick on at the same time as your car is charging, along with your water heater. Just saying because it has the capacity doesnt always mean it will work - there must be plenty of margin for a combination of things to be running. Sure, in many cases, adding on a 240v 20A circuit might not be that big of a deal, but even that could be a hassle for some.

There are a couple of other possibilities here. One is solar charging to supplement grid charging. A residential installation of solar panels can put out 10 or more kW. Another possibility is to use a stationary battery (which incidentally doubles as an emergency power source) which charges continuously, and can dump its load rapidly into an EV battery.
...
The logistics involved mainstreaming ICE vehicles represented larger hurdles than anything involving EVs, and yet they were overcome. Right now I feel lack of economy of scale is the biggest factor preventing massive uptake of EVs. Higher range would help also, but the truth is 100 mile range is sufficient for the vast majority of users.
Yeah but again it goes back to a big cost/hassle. A 10kW solar array, complete with battery storage in going to run several tens of thousands $$.

Yes ICE took quite a bit to implement. But at the time there wasnt any other way to do it (self powered I mean). Its a little different today since there are plenty of good working and CHEAP vehicles out there already, that are more capable.
 

JollyRoger

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It is much cheaper to get your local utility to upgrade your electrical service than to think about solar/battery storage options. I think solar is great, but not for making up for a household's not being able to provide enough juice for an EV. What happens if it's cloudy for a few days?

Tesla has a great idea with its supercharger network. I usually only charge up about 50-75 miles worth of range per day--I set my car to charge at 10-20 amps at 240v. If I need to take a trip, the Superchargers are there to provide over 100 miles of range in as little as 20 mins. The idea is that you stop for a restroom break, grab a snack, and return to your charged up car. I've used Superchargers a few times now and they work well.
Of course if I need to charge more at home I can ramp up the current to 40 amps etc. or even 80 (if one has the high power wall connector installed) but the point is that most people don't need to charge that fast. If you do, it's not that complicated to call the utility and bring in more service to your house. And using a good electrician who knows what he's doing is very important!!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gadget_lover

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Tesla has a great idea with its supercharger network. I usually only charge up about 50-75 miles worth of range per day--I set my car to charge at 10-20 amps at 240v. If I need to take a trip, the Superchargers are there to provide over 100 miles of range in as little as 20 mins. The idea is that you stop for a restroom break, grab a snack, and return to your charged up car. I've used Superchargers a few times now and they work well.

On our trip from Silicon Valley area to San Diego we spotted several Tesla public charging sites. The ones I remember were
1) Just north of the grapevine on I5 is a group of gas stations, restaurants and truck stops. There are ( I think) 8 chargers there.
2) Also on I5 about 140 miles from San Jose is Harris Ranch restaurant and Motor lodge. Wonderful food, BTW. It had 6 or 7 charging bays too.

We saw another, but I don't recall where. I drive a Prius. :)


Daniel
 

orbital

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Currently @ $209.97 per share____ market cap of $25.74B

silly hysteria over


_____________________________________________
 
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Monocrom

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Did NHTSA release the findings of their investigation? interested in seeing if they agree that it was silly hysteria. (Or even hysteria at all.)
 

orbital

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Tesla stock has more than doubled in the last 90 days
 

moldyoldy

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Bump:

60 Minutes had a full section tonight on Elon Musk, including his Tesla cars, Space-X, and his idea of building a plant to supply the needed Li-Ion cellls for his cars. Mr. Musk's Mother, Sister, Brother were interviewed. All of his efforts were on the brink of folding at some point, especially during the 2008 financial meltdown. Yet right now Mr. Musk is considered successful in all efforts!

however, my caveat: I am not sure that Mr. Musk's creativity can find the necessary Lithium supplies at a price/quantity that makes economic sense for his desired production quantities of cars.

Edit: I found it curious why the interviewer(s) did not inquire as to why Mr. Musk selected the name "Tesla". Nicola Tesla has inspired many scientists and engineers with his somewhat radical ideas - at least radical for conventional design wisdom.

However, as has been reiterated by more than one professor of EE, Maxwell's Laws allow for both Electrical and Magnetic forces. Conventional design wisdom focuses on the electrical aspect. Working with magnetics design often involves incantations and long periods of deliberations which are not manageable under any mgmt system. Fields theory is the bane of EE training, worse than Green's theorem and 2nd order diffeqs....
 
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Steve K

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Bump:


However, as has been reiterated by more than one professor of EE, Maxwell's Laws allow for both Electrical and Magnetic forces. Conventional design wisdom focuses on the electrical aspect. Working with magnetics design often involves incantations and long periods of deliberations which are not manageable under any mgmt system. Fields theory is the bane of EE training, worse than Green's theorem and 2nd order diffeqs....

I'm not sure I understand the third sentence about magnetics design not being manageable. The Tesla cars use high power switching power supplies, which certainly involves magnetics design in the inductors. The drive motors are based on good magnetics design. Presuming the cars meet applicable EMC standards, some thought has gone into properly containing any electro-magnetic emissions, as well as making the car sufficiently immune to external electro-magnetic fields.

These are relatively narrow niches of the EE skills spectrum. Is that what you are referring to?
 

moldyoldy

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I'm not sure I understand the third sentence about magnetics design not being manageable. The Tesla cars use high power switching power supplies, which certainly involves magnetics design in the inductors. The drive motors are based on good magnetics design. Presuming the cars meet applicable EMC standards, some thought has gone into properly containing any electro-magnetic emissions, as well as making the car sufficiently immune to external electro-magnetic fields.

These are relatively narrow niches of the EE skills spectrum. Is that what you are referring to?

well, yes, more or less correct. magnetics design is a rather specialized area of the EE skills and most EEs have an aversion to that area. My memories of electronics started with vacuum tubes. Magnetics design was either an exercise in slide rule gymnastics, or eventually I saw a HP9825 computer with a magnetics design program which was intended to replace laborious slide-rule efforts. example from my early design days: A small transformer designer was asked to change some feature of a transformer. He shuddered, disappeared for about an hour or two, and came back with an answer. Whether the new design achieved the design goal or even whether it was implementable was an answer of another week or two. For that matter, switching power supplies took quite a while to displace analog power supplies. the efficiency of switching supplies and failure rates improved to the point of usefulness in the '90s. Some time ago, the US Navy considered power supplies of any type to represent more than 1/2 of electonics failures in the fleet. The mil-spec rating was to divide the listed current capacity in half. Same for resistors.

Even in military designs, toroidal core transformers were designed out of the circuitry as soon as permitted during the routine upgrades. Winding small toroidal core transformers was often left to girls with a very sensitive touch in their fingers. Machines would keep breaking the wire.

Rare-earth magnets in motor design finally provided sufficient torque/power to begin replacing hydraulics. our motor drive designers said that they could use an electric motor to drive most anything a hydraulic motor could drive in a military system, but getting rid of the heat was the real problem. Hydraulics are considered a serious fire hazard in military vehicles.

Magnetics are treated more casually these days due to computer programs dedicated to magnetics. Understanding magnetic lines of force and how those interact with the surroundings is still a challenge in equipment.

As an aside: My older daughter before she became a pediatrician, worked for a few years at an MRI research center as an MRI tech. At the end of her time there, the center received major funding and brought in a 16 Tesla MRI machine. She said that each phase of the AC power cable to the machine was as large around as her wrist. There is a Youtube video showing a live frog being levitated in a 16 Tesla field - legs kicking as it bounces off one wall to the other of the tube. Most medical MRIs on living patients are conducted on a 1.5 Tesla machine, maybe a 3 Tesla machine. MRI machines above those power levels are focused on research.
 
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