True cost to run EV like paying $17.33 per gallon if not for $22 billion in government subsidies.

[KITROBASKIN]

All this banter about 'true cost'. How much true cost is this 'freedom'?

A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US

In the last several years, a proliferation of tiny pieces of plastic and metal is fueling a spike in semi-automatic handguns converted to fully automatic fire.

apnews.com

AP News is not always even handed but hopefully you all don't get triggered with this article.

 

[RWT1405]

This whole "point of a gun," dictatorship rhetoric keeps getting thrown around in EV conversations.

I am partial to a self determinate mindset and have an aversion to being told what to do. I don't want an EV unless things change a lot.

But we're talking about no new ICE vehicles being sold in some states in 10+ years.

It's not the same as being marched off to gulags. The bar is quite a bit higher, thank God.

Can we please take it down a notch?

So, as long as they take away our Rights, over a 10+ year period, that's ok?

Do you actually read, and then understand, the BS you wrote?

 

[bykfixer]

All this banter about 'true cost'. How much true cost is this 'freedom'?

A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US

In the last several years, a proliferation of tiny pieces of plastic and metal is fueling a spike in semi-automatic handguns converted to fully automatic fire.

apnews.com

AP News is not always even handed but hopefully you all don't get triggered with this article.

What's this got to do with this thread.

Modifying semi-autos is as old as semi-autos. And for some, if you hold the trigger in the right spot it becomes an automatic. It seems the difference is now the "gangsta's" have figured that out.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

The term FUD comes to mind.

About 10 years ago, maybe more I used to debate my well meaning sister about things that now she has no comment over. Won't go over specfics but I used to tell her to stop listening to doom sayers and look at the facts. Time proved her being mad about stuff was a waste of a bunch of good years and worse, she'd been dooped.

What does this have to do with this thread?

 

[sim1tti]

What's this got to do with this thread.

When people keep equating EV mandates to dictatorship, you're inevitably going find it compared to issues of similar gravity.

I'd be in favor of avoiding the red herrings, but it's hard to stay on topic when everyone can't seem to help but unnecessarily raise the temperature.

 

[sim1tti]

All this banter about 'true cost'. How much true cost is this 'freedom'?

A lot freedoms are zero sum…one person's freedom requires restricting another person's freedom. We all suffer under the freedoms granted to others. A functioning free society is about compromise.

With things like guns (2A) and abortion, the debates involve literal rights, issues of life and death.
Super heated for good reason.

The "true cost" debate around EVs, specifically mandates, involves freedoms, sure. I just don't think it belongs in the same zero sum basket. Too overheated.

 

[sim1tti]

So, as long as they take away our Rights, over a 10+ year period, that's ok?

Do you actually read, and then understand, the BS you wrote?

I didn't say that, but thank you for straw manning me (now that was sarcasm).

I'll reiterate very plainly.

Limited freedom to specifically purchase a brand new car, with a gasoline or diesel engine, after 2035, in some states does not rise to the level of a dictatorship…being at the point of a gun…etc.

That is a gross over exaggeration. It's not reasonable to be escalating this issue to something like that.

And when you say "take away our Rights over a 10+ year period" you're painting an inaccurate, over exaggerated picture of the issue.

Let's be specific. The capital R "Right" your talking about is the "Right" to purchase a brand new car that burns gasoline after 2035 is some states.

There are potential and foreseeable ramifications that can be debated, but none of them leads us to Benito's Italy or Xi's China. This is the freest country on earth, and it still will be whether or not you're able to buy a brand new gas car in California in 2035.

Edit: typo with 2035, syntax.

 

[sim1tti]

Maybe it's worth expanding on why this is not a zero-sum example of freedom lost.

With the specific issue of EV adoption—at least the way it is being framed now by some state mandates–-my question is this:

"How much freedom are we really talking about giving up here?"

It's literally the freedom to purchase a brand new car with a gasoline or diesel engine after 2035 in some states. Four critera, all of which need to be met.

Things you can still do, no caveats:

• Purchase a new ICE car for the next ten years.
• Purchase or sell a used ICE car indefinitely.
• Drive an ICE car indefinitely.
• Register an ICE car indefinitely.
• Purchase a brand new gas car somewhere else and drive it in another state indefinitely.

*Provided the downsides of EV ownership are mitigated over the next 10 years (price, range, easy quick access to refueling at home and on the road, cost of battery replacement), here are the freedoms no one will be giving up, ever.

• Freedom to drive wherever you can drive now without any discernible impediment to range or access to fuel.
• Freedom to buy an affordably priced car.
• Freedom to maintain an affordably priced car.

Again, provided those downsides are mitigated, I cannot think of a single freedom that would be sacrificed other than "I want to buy a brand new car that burns gas/diesel because...that's just my preference."

Please, someone articulate the freedom being sacrificed and the tyranny we'd experience in its absence?

If the downsides aren't completely addressed, they'll at least be significantly mitigated. At worst some things will become marginally less convenient. I'd still expect the legislation to be retooled in the coming decade to accomdate the shortcomings. That's the way these kind of things generally play out.

I wouldn't buy an EV today. But having an EV in 10 years isn't going to come with the same downsides. Even after, there will be plenty of ICE cars on the road and a full service infrastructure around them for probably 10 years more, slowly tapering down off after that. Gas stations aren't just going to evaporate on Jan 1st, 2035. Most of the people here are old enough that they will never need to buy an EV if they're so averse.

 

[mrfixitman]

So how long will it take the batteries to charge on a large mining dump truck? A week? For what amount of runtime? There is still no good substitute for the ICE in applications other than commuting and light duty tasks.

Looking at it from an agricultural business perspective the tech is not there yet. Farmers can't stop and wait hours for tractors or combines to charge. They have too many variables against them already. I'm in a different kind of farming but I don't have time to wait on charging something that won't run all day either.

The mining truck only needs enough charge to get to the top of the mine. It charges with a full load down the hill. Rinse repeat. Forklifts run 8 hours on lead batteries. https://www.monarchtractor.com/blog/how-long-to-charge-ev
Tractors run all day.

 

[bykfixer]

What?
Take a look at the first post of this thread, then take a look in the mirror.

My point was "you're trying to scare the kids" rhetoric was ill timed. It seemed to be an attempt to (as one poster said) raise the temperature.

Didn't mean to touch a nerve button, was just questioning the timing is all.

 

[bykfixer]

At a local filling station this morning we saw a $60k car from several states away recharging. I figured in comparision a $35k petrol powered car of the same size could refill and be back on the road in about 10 minutes or less. All for about $40.
The electric car about 45 minutes and about $75.

My wife quipped I wonder how many days it took to get here. I told her the car in question can probably go as far on a charge as her's on a tankful. So there is progress but... they're just not practical for the entire transportation system. Nowhere close.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

A gentle answer turns away wrath.

 

[mrfixitman]

@mrfixitman , can you tackle the specific claim that break dust in EVs and tire wear are greater pollutants than petroleum emissions in ICEs?

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/2...ary-proven-wrong-on-ev-tires-brake-pollution/ Seems there is a controversy.

 

[mrfixitman]

.

How bad are rubber tires for the environment?

The pollution from your brakes and tires isn't benign, either. Tests by Emissions Analytics, an engineering consulting company based in England, found tires produce about 2,000 times more particle pollution by mass than tailpipes. Although not regulated, those emissions exceed the legal particle limits for exhaust.Jul 9, 2023




Left Wing Media says so... (Article should open in private mode browser...)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/09/tire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

There is some controversy here. https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/2...ary-proven-wrong-on-ev-tires-brake-pollution/

 

[mrfixitman]

At a local filling station this morning we saw a $60k car from several states away recharging. I figured in comparison a $35k petrol powered car of the same size could refill and be back on the road in about 10 minutes or less. All for about $40.
The electric car about 45 minutes and about $75.

My wife quipped I wonder how many days it took to get here. I told her the car in question can probably go as far on a charge as her's on a tankful. So there is progress but... they're just not practical for the entire transportation system. Nowhere close.

Since you didn't mention the make of car, probably not a Tesla. How did you know how long the car was there. Did you stay to find out. Sounds like speculation. I can fill my Model III in about 25 minutes or so for 25 dollars. Need to do that 4 times to get to Portland from San Francisco. 638 miles. First stop Corning, CA 24 minutes, Mount Shasta, CA 29 minutes, Myrtle Creek, OR 16 minutes, Harrisburg, OR 11 minutes. Arive in Portland with 10%. All charges to 80 percent. Time to Portland 11h 25m. Very practical and faster than my Veggie Diesel that did the trip 15 years ago. Since it didn't charge up all the way and the last two stops stopped early for speed(EVs charge faster from 0% to 80% or any where less than 80
%. The computer makes stops based on speed of charge)I suspect these four stops to cost about $75. A little less than what you would spend if gas was $4.50 a gallon and you got 35mpg. So there is a penalty for using a Supercharger. The electricity is twice as expensive. In normal driving you would charge at home for pennies per mile. In normal driving you would save quite a bit of money. Charging away from home is considered a luxury. With gas you pay the same all the time.

 

[yearnslow]

Can someone explain to me, how, with the proposed adoption of an all EV policy,
That they are all going to be charged without Oil, Gas or coal running power stations?
Because the obvious answer would be Nuclear, which has always been unacceptable to the very people who are advocating EV's?
Are there any future plans for more NP stations?

The obvious answer is to reduce a populations opportunity to travel, or in other words, remove your right to travel.
This is the only way it would work, at present.

 

[Toulouse42]

Hey guys - this ignore function is great. I concluded this morning that one particular member as we say over here " is doing my head in ". Reluctantly, I placed him on ignore and I can already feel the relief.

 

[bykfixer]

Since you didn't mention the make of car, probably not a Tesla. How did you know how long the car was there. Did you stay to find out. Sounds like speculation. I can fill my Model III in about 25 minutes or so for 25 dollars. Need to do that 4 times to get to Portland from San Francisco. 638 miles. First stop Corning, CA 24 minutes, Mount Shasta, CA 29 minutes, Myrtle Creek, OR 16 minutes, Harrisburg, OR 11 minutes. Arive in Portland with 10%. All charges to 80 percent. Time to Portland 11h 25m. Very practical and faster than my Veggie Diesel that did the trip 15 years ago. Since it didn't charge up all the way and the last two stops stopped early for speed(EVs charge faster from 0% to 80% or any where less than 80
%. The computer makes stops based on speed of charge)I suspect these four stops to cost about $75. A little less than what you would spend if gas was $4.50 a gallon and you got 35mpg. So there is a penalty for using a Supercharger. The electricity is twice as expensive. In normal driving you would charge at home for pennies per mile. In normal driving you would save quite a bit of money. Charging away from home is considered a luxury. With gas you pay the same all the time.

Why do you assume it was not a Telsa? Why do you assume the trip it made had any relation to any of the trips you described? Did you not understand the car was from several states away?

See, what you failed to notice was I was actually trying to point out electric cars are getting better yet they still have a ways to go.

 

[alpg88]

Can someone explain to me, how, with the proposed adoption of an all EV policy,
That they are all going to be charged without Oil, Gas or coal running power stations?
Because the obvious answer would be Nuclear, which has always been unacceptable to the very people who are advocating EV's?
Are there any future plans for more NP stations?

The obvious answer is to reduce a populations opportunity to travel, or in other words, remove your right to travel.
This is the only way it would work, at present.

they wont.
you pretty much nailed it, it is purely political, as long as you look at it with logic, you will never understand. it contradicts it.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]