Ti PD-XP-G ! Will the dream come true Don???

[fyrstormer]

Enrique could probably provide a driver, since his Aeon and Nautilus use a very similar progressive-twisty switch. However, that says nothing about the cost or whether Enrique would even be willing to sell a batch of drivers to Don.

 

[DimeRazorback]

Just missed out on an LS20 on the marketplace

 

[run4jc]

That would be a complete no-go for me, having a McGizmo modded. That's like taking a paint brush and modding a Picasso... :sick2:

No offense though, some carry them, some hold them as shelf queens and some mod them, everybody must do as he wants to, I only want untouched ones, like Don created them! :bow:

Of course, to each his own. I see it more as taking a Ferrari and perhaps upgrading the intake system. Certainly not unprecedented- it has been done....and if it makes it even better, then it becomes even more useful without giving up any of the wonderful qualities that make it a McGizmo. When I bought mine on B/S/T it had already had the clip polished. I was inspired by fyrstormer - a true collector of Don's beauties. But as I said, to each his or her own! I fully understand what you say!



(I haven't shipped it away for modding yet, though.... :wave

 

[paulr]

My spider sense is telling me this thread is heading in the direction of "artist vs. customer". I've seen how such arguments have ended before.

I'm actually not sure which direction is which in that post. It seems to me that the PD is a bit of an anachronism compared to microprocessor switching, and in that sense continuing to use it reflects choosing artistry over pure function. I like non-microprocessor flashlights for the same reasons that I like tube stereos and black-and-white photography. It's not a matter of being retro (I do like digital watches); it's just that the user experience of having fewer modes is more direct and satisfying, and IMO it's ok to trade off some functionality for that directness.

 

[RocketTomato]

I'm actually not sure which direction is which in that post. It seems to me that the PD is a bit of an anachronism compared to microprocessor switching, and in that sense continuing to use it reflects choosing artistry over pure function. I like non-microprocessor flashlights for the same reasons that I like tube stereos and black-and-white photography. It's not a matter of being retro (I do like digital watches); it's just that the user experience of having fewer modes is more direct and satisfying, and IMO it's ok to trade off some functionality for that directness.

The Nitecore smart PD and the Arc 6 are two different flashlights that use both piston drives and microprocessors. PDs and processors are not mutually exclusive and most definitely not anachronistic.

 

[easilyled]

As good as the McClicky switches are, there is something ultra-cool about the Ti piston (with or without trit)

It is not something that can be easily rationalized in words.

It is the feeling that is evoked by picking up a PD-light and looking at the robust Ti button at the end of the tail.

So much nicer looking than a rubber switch.

It also "appears" to be more bomb-proof. This may or may not be true, but the impression I have is that the McClicky can wear out or fail after so many activations, but it is harder to imagine the piston mechanism doing this even though the limiting factor is the Kilroy spring in this case.

As to the bezel-retaining rings, I have tried to argue in favor of them in the past only for Don to rationalize about the disadvantages of that design choking the beam and also not cushioning the lens as well as 2 o-rings on either side in case of a fall.

I accept that rationalization, but again I think the bezel-ring has much more coolness factor and it is definitely easier to clean any smudges off the lens, centre the led and blow dust off the reflector by simply unscrewing the retaining bezel-ring.

I also question how many lumens would be choked off the Ti-PD with the bezel-ring on compared to off. I doubt it would be a significant amount.

The Ti-PD-S is still the ultimate design of all the McGizmo lights for me, because of the above.

 

[Henk_Lu]

Of course, to each his own. I see it more as taking a Ferrari and perhaps upgrading the intake system. Certainly not unprecedented- it has been done....and if it makes it even better, then it becomes even more useful without giving up any of the wonderful qualities that make it a McGizmo. When I bought mine on B/S/T it had already had the clip polished. I was inspired by fyrstormer - a true collector of Don's beauties. But as I said, to each his or her own! I fully understand what you say!



(I haven't shipped it away for modding yet, though.... :wave

Please bear in mind that the XP-G needs another reflector design. I have no idea what you get replacing a P4 by a XP-G, but the LEDs are quite different, I guess the hotspot will be huge...

I was lucky with my PD-S, the only mod was a little sanding on the clip to make an easier entry (if you use the clip, that's a great idea). For the rest, the light is mint and got only a light polish, probably to buff the usual ti-scratches out.

During the last days I used my new Haiku XP-G, I guess today it will be the PD-S again! :twothumbs

 

[run4jc]

Please bear in mind that the XP-G needs another reflector design. I have no idea what you get replacing a P4 by a XP-G, but the LEDs are quite different, I guess the hotspot will be huge...

Of course! "The modder" (PM if you want to know who) comes highly recommended and he realizes the reflector issues....again, this has been done. He will have to 'shim' the led height up to meet the reflector. And yes, I expect a huge hotspot, but that is useful to me.

I'll be happy to share the results once the mod is done, but again, in staying with the original intent of this thread, I would happily purchase an 'original issue' Ti PD-XPG.

As so many have said so well, the elegance and simplicity of the design are very desirable. My Haiku is my favorite light, but I carry the PD-S often, typically twisted 'on' to the low setting for close range lighting, then a quick press for instant high that is most useful. I think that 'high' would be even more useful with the XP-G.

Using it this way avoids the 'cycling' through the various levels as is done with a clicky. I used my LS27 for the same reason today - walking my dogs in icy conditions, I used the low for the majority of the walk, but when I needed a quick 'burst' of light, the instant high beam was useful.

I'm thinking that a PD-XPG would supplement my EDC rotation nicely for that reason - constant low with an instant, 'punchy flood' high.

:thumbsup:

 

[Roccomo]

Wow. Great thread.

Like a lot of McGizmo owners I think the PD is the best switch out there. I'm not a clicky fan and I don't need 3 levels of light. Twisty latch works great for me as does PD momentary. I have not bought a clicky from Don, and I won't. I'm sure they're as awesome as everything else he makes but I haven't seen or felt the need. The LS 20 has covered every EDC lighting requirement for me since I got it in the fall of '08. So much so that I have since BST'd my trusty old, well used Al PD. I haven't even bought another light since. The Lunasol gets carried and used every day. It does it all for me.

Because it's a PD.

There is something about these lights, about the PD. It's just right. It's as if an 'all metal' thing is somehow greater than a thing that has a rubber part on its exterior. It's in the form factor, the hand feel and the eye appeal. The sense of quality, craftsmanship and value. All of that, in addition to PD function and UI. Those are well established, die hard and they work without drama or BS like a tool should. The PD elevates the item to a level not usually attainable by the man on the street. The PD is special, it's unique and it's good beyond some increased functionality available in the newer McGizmos. It's sad to see it laid to rest and it seems a loss to the flashlight community. But, what Don says goes here. End of story.

Don posted above and makes it fairly clear that he won't do a project based on requests in this or other similar threads....no matter how many people say they would buy one. We just want the McGizmos that we want with no thought or consideration to the risk and undertaking that it is for the maker. Don doesn't have to post his personal business on this forum but I think he has given enough of a hint as to where he stands on these issues.

All of that said, I think I'd get one of these if he made them. :thumbsup:

I want mine without H3* please:twothumbs


*see avatar

 

[:)>]

2 Levels is enough. The surefire lights like the L1, L2X, E1B, E1L and the E2L are just about perfect lights with only 2 levels.

The PD, like the LX2 is unique in that it gives immediate access to both levels as desired and in my mind, the PD is a primary reason to buy a McGizmo... clearly not the only reason because there really is something to Don's lights that screams "buy me and use me". The 3 speed Haiku has really been calling to me of late especially with the satisfaction that I have heard many folks report, but beyond the ultra cool and satisfying McGizmoness that all of Don's lights exude, I don't see it being as desirable as a PD based light.

In my mind, 2 levels if fine but 3 levels is more desirable because I find that I don't need high as much and I prefer the runtime gain and utility of a "tweener" level.

I would like to see the Ti PD's continue to be offered because of their beauty and simplicity, but if R&D are a part of the cost to offer this light, then I would rather direct the R&D funds to what I would consider to be the next evolution of the design which included the abiility to select the high and low levels... there are times that I wished that my E1L could put out more light like an E1B and that I wished that I could have immediate access to high. A PD that I could select the levels for would be a "holy grail" light giving me the ability to easily select the levels that I needed while maintaining the awesomeness of the 2-stage non-latching tailcap.

There are no other lights that can do this right now save the Arc 6 and much to my dismay, I cannot justify owning that light because of the inefficiency of the driver.

Just my .02... I like options and having a light with multiple runtime and output options that functions like a PD would be right on top of my list... at the very top.

 

[:)>]

I forgot to add that a LunaSol that worked like this would be even better!

 

[tino_ale]

I personally get confused when more than 2 levels are involved. I have to then decide how much light I want, which I never really know, so I always ignore all the levels and just go for min or max.

I would agree with you except for one big detail : IMO 3 levels is extremely usefull : one low for indoor and night vision preservation, one high that I use for all other cases and finally a "burst" that I use when the high is not enough.

IMO : 2 levels are not enough, 3 is ideal, 4 levels or more is unnecessary

I've owned several PD and enjoyed them a lot, but since I own the Haiku I think it would be a step backward. We all have different way to use our lights though so this only my opinion.

 

[McGizmo]

For a long time, I felt the LED's potential and dynamic range were best suited with a two level output. When they started producing in excess of 100 lumens, it was my opinion that a three level output was and could be justified; UI and such aside.

The beam distribution is also a significant consideration in whether a high-low or high-med-low output can or would actually provide any reasonable utility.

My criteria for design is hard to nail down but I think basically I seek to design and build lights that can and will provide good viable light and can be depended upon doing this in less than ideal conditions or environments. Because one's needs for illumination in terms of beam pattern and intensity vary, having a light with multiple output or modes can provide more utility than a single level light but there are diminishing returns as multiple levels are added.

Those of you who are asking for a Ti PD XP-G who have not tried the Haiku XP-G are perhaps doing me a disservice if not to yourself because I am convinced that the three levels from the Haiku trump the potential of two levels from the PD even if the switch method of the PD is preferred. Those who base their preference on appearance of the light are certainly entitled to do so but the function and light delivered down stream is what motivates me above all else. I have encountered no difficulty in getting the level I wish from the Haiku and if I don't know what level is going to come on, I can easily avoid getting blinded by blocking or aiming the light initially off target and not in direct view. This has not been a problem but I can understand how it might be for some and in some applications.

Bringing a light to fruition and making an offering involves finances, commitments and time, all of which are my problem and not yours. Many of you are great and long time supporters of my efforts and believe me, I do appreciate this! If not for you, I couldn't design and build lights. :bow:

With new technologies and new LED's we all get a chance to sample them and perhaps obtain a newer and better light. When the XP-G came out and I had a chance to play and experiment with it, I felt it represented a new level and justified designing a new light to be host to it. Not having unlimited time or resources I of course hoped to leverage previous components and designs so I wouldn't have to start from scratch. The first priority was an optic specific to the XP-G. When I got into the design of this optic I realized I could easily integrate it into the existing Haiku geometry and use the existing Haiku head with no modifications. I think there is a lot to be said for the modularity of the E series and Aleph compatible format, if it is not exploited, at the present time.

I too like the PD switching system and I think it was used optimally with the LunaSol series. At this point though and this is strictly personal, I am never without a Sapphire and the Sapphire covers my in close and low level flood requirements. That is a given. If I want or know I will need more flood and quality flood, then I will also carry a SunDrop XR-U. If I anticipate the possible need for more light or illumination at greater range then it is the Haiku XP-G that I will carry. I am not stating that this is the right solution for anyone else but it is the one I have found best for me and obviously it is one I can believe in and support. It is the basis for my present desire and attempts at trying to build and maintain inventory of the three lights mentioned. I am also hoping to continue in providing the option of the 2xAA McClickie Pak which can power either the Haiku XP-G or SunDrop XR-U.

The PD system and integral light engine is completely different and requires a different set of components and converter then what I am presently working with. If I found I were on top of the inventory issues and had a good flow in the offerings of the three lights mentioned above (Sapphire, SunDrop XR-U and Haiku XP-G), then I would be more receptive in exploring additions or an expansion of the offerings and certainly I would take a look at the PD possibilities. But I would also like to visit a twisty only, possibly single speed, and brighter light that would be host to multiple LED's and optics. :thinking: :shrug:

What may take only a few minutes to describe and identify in concept and desire can take untold hours (months) and resources to bring to fruition. As a one man show, at best, I need to recognize and work within my many limitations.

 

[scout24]

This thread has been fascinating and informative, thank you to all who have posted. The depth of knowledge and opinion that has been expressed, and the fact that it can happen in a positive way even though not everyone agrees, is one of the things that I love about CPF. Don, thank you for taking the time to explain your views and ideas, and explain some of the thought behind them. lovecpf

 

[iconoclast]

...
Assuming that I could find a viable source for an appropriate converter and justify any associated development costs and NRE, how many of you would consider a two level output PD XP-G at say a cost of $520 a superior solution over the 3 speed Haiku that is $450?

Yes. Absolutely. Hands down without question.

I for one consider the Haiku a superior solution over a 2 speed PD even if the price was the same.

Having used both quite a bit I can say I love my Haiku too. It's a great light in it's own right. But for me even with the third brightness level the PD still wins.

As you point out in the post just above, LEDs have come to where more brightness levels are justified. (Something that most of the readers here probably address by carrying multiple lights.) The stumbling block though seems to be in the ui.

For me personally, I find the one-button multiple click brightness switching to be an incredibly bad ui that gets accepted only because it's so widespread that very few put any thought into it. And the more brightness levels you add, the less useful it becomes. This is not a trivial problem to solve, and along with the Titan/Gattlight approach, the PD style is one of the very few truly usable multi-level lights. Even with a clicky body on it, I can predict (and control) what the brightness will be when I turn it on. I can't say the same for my Haiku, particularly if I wasn't the last one to use it.

Would you prefer the PD to have a threaded bezel ring even though this would lengthen the head and block some of the spill or would the present solution of a window retained by an O-ring be acceptable?

Both approaches seem to work fine, and I'll trust you'll come up with the right answer. Though I understand your point about the threaded bezel, its not something that's ever really stood out one way or the other in regular day to day use.

You guys are not privy to all of the aspects of obtaining the required components or the disparity in minimum quantities required but if you will accept my word for it, I do end up with excess components which can't be used unless a further program can exploit them.

All very true. So realistically all we can do from this end is give you our dreams and keep our fingers crossed.

I think the PD is ideal for momentary access to two levels or two channels (or even more levels with a software driven solution like the Arc 6 and maybe some of the NiteCore lights). For latching on, I think a clickie is superior. For three levels like the Haiku XP-G offers, The clickie wins in my book both in terms of momentary and latched on activation.

The Arc 6 and NiteCore are both interesting attempts to improve upon the basic (mechanical) PD. If anything they may be incremental improvements, but to me at least, not necessarily a compelling advantage over the basic PD.

Yes, the clickie wins for combo momentary/latched use. Trying to overload it with brightness selection as well doesn't seem to be as obvious a choice.

The clicky body on a PD head may actually be the best compromise so far. Two brightness levels with most of the advantages of the PD and of the single-function clicky button, with easy access to both momentary and latched behavior.

 

[easilyled]

One thought that I had is that because the 3-speed non-pd lights succeeded the piston lights, that this automatically creates a bias in perception that they are more advanced or evolved.

Especially with the persuasively good arguments put forward on their behalf by Don.

It would have been very interesting to see what the perception would have been, if the reverse had taken place.

Imagine if there had never been any piston-designed lights until after the Sundrop/Haiku etc.

Then all of a sudden Don posted his mind-blowing thread about the piston concept that I remember so clearly all those years ago, and introduced a new wave of lights with the revolutionary PD design allied to the efficient XP-G emitter.

A 2-speed with the low and high levels of the Haiku.

Would this have been seen as a step backwards or a brilliant, new concept?

Perhaps one of the greatest ever!

I know what I think. :nana:

 

[fyrstormer]

As good as the McClicky switches are, there is something ultra-cool about the Ti piston (with or without trit)

It is not something that can be easily rationalized in words.

I totally agree. That's why I have a spare PD piston (slightly defective) sitting on my desk as a desk toy.

 

[Simon520]

Don,
My first light from you was a Haiku XP-G. I have to agree that it is an amazing lighting instrument.

I bought a Lunasol 20 a few weeks ago and I've EDC'd my Haiku and LS20 since. I currently have the LS20 in my pocket. The LS20 is more satisfying to operate, but it's not as bright as the Haiku. There is just something undeniably SATISFYING about thumbing a piston and having the light switch on- and then pressing harder and having the light jump in brightness.

I'd like to have the brightness and efficiency of the Haiku in a piston drive. 2 levels is OK with me.

If you made a piston drive retrofit to the Haiku with a new light engine and piston pak, I'd buy it. I suppose the UI would be similar to the Nitecore D10 SP. Whatever. I'd buy it.

If you wanted to make a Ti-PD-XP-G with only 2 levels and a Kilroy/non-electronic UI, I'd buy it.

In fact, I'd be in for 5 of them.

 

[tino_ale]

I accept that rationalization, but again I think the bezel-ring has much more coolness factor and it is definitely easier to clean any smudges off the lens, centre the led and blow dust off the reflector by simply unscrewing the retaining bezel-ring.

About the o-ring retaining system, for both front lens and rubber boot, I must admit that I first had doubts. I doubted the fact that the parts would not come out accidentally and I doubted the fact that this system would be water resistant to any significant level.

Man I was wrong! Now that I've used the haiku for a long time I can see how well the system works. I've taken it down to approx 15m underwater without a single leak. I've dropped it a few times without any ill effect. Yet I can take the whole thing appart in minutes using a tooth pick. If you're carefull you can even re-use the o-rings.

About blowing the reflector, once it's done I don't see why you would want to blow it again?

I understand the cool factor of a bezel but from a technical standpoint the o-ring system has convinced me to be supperior.

BTW : anyone trying to put the o-ring back in place should try coating them with a small amount of lube, they will snap in place in a matter of seconds

 

[F250XLT]

I would probably buy one, but would certainly be MORE than satisfied with another run of Ti PD-S's :naughty: