When does DC voltage become dangerous?

tino_ale

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IIRC your kidney can also fail from current in your body. There has been occurence where someone sustained an electric shock, was well minutes after but would be found dead the next morning because the kidney were damaged during the process.

After any electrical incident where you suspect current has gone through your body you should seek medical assistance. Now, I agree it's not easy to define in what case the incident was "significant" enough to decide whether to have a check-up or not :scowl:
 

Apollo Cree

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Also, everyone here is talking about voltage and current, but it's total energy in joules from the charge which actually kills.

I think joules is only going to matter for burns or tissue damage. A short shock without many joules can easily stop the heart and it may not restart on its own. A long shock below the dangerous current levels will tend to not do any damage except in extreme situations, even though it accumulates a lot of joules.

The amount of current and length of time actually flowing through the various organs is usually the most important factor.
 
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65535

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While it's true the lethal amount of current across the heart is very low, it takes a whole lot of voltage to allow that amount of current to flow through your heart.

Also joules is a measure of energy per time, the longer the time the more joules that flow, shorter time, less joules.

DC reacts to resistance more than AC, it takes a fair bit more DC volts to generate lethal current across the heart than it does AC. 24VAC will cause muscle contractions and some pretty bad feelings. It takes around 50VDC to feel the current flowing through your body.

You're more likely to die from higher voltages than low because they will travel farther through your body.

The actual chances of being electrocuted from normal circumstances of the average person is very low. It's hard to generate a short across your heart with current electrical codes. Sure you could burn yourself very badly, or cause muscle damage and soft tissue damage, but death is unlikely.
 

Mr Happy

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It's worth bearing in mind that the electronic muscle stimulators with sticky pads that are sold to increase muscle tone use a pretty low voltage of about 12 V. If that voltage can cause muscle contractions around your body, it is not difficult to imagine it doing the same kind of thing to your heart muscle.

There is always a statistical variation where people are concerned. Just because 99 healthy people are unharmed by an electric shock, it does not prove that 1 person might not have an undiagnosed heart condition or genetic predisposition that causes a fatality.

To be safe, never get glib with electricity.
 

Apollo Cree

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While it's true the lethal amount of current across the heart is very low, it takes a whole lot of voltage to allow that amount of current to flow through your heart.

Not necessarily. Depends on where the voltage is applied, sweaty hands holding a metal wrench, in the bathtub using a telephone, patients connected to medical equipment, standing in the rain working on a "low voltage" piece of electrical equipment you though was turned off, accidentally cutting your finger on an electrical connector, etc.

Also joules is a measure of energy per time, the longer the time the more joules that flow, shorter time, less joules.

Joules is a measure of energy. Power is energy per unit time.

DC reacts to resistance more than AC

No. Period. End of story. See Ohm's Law.

it takes a fair bit more DC volts to generate lethal current across the heart than it does AC. 24VAC will cause muscle contractions and some pretty bad feelings. It takes around 50VDC to feel the current flowing through your body.

Current flows through things. Voltage is across things. AC current is more efficient than DC at causing ventricular fibrillation. The other potentially lethal effects of electrical current aren't necessarily more potent with AC than with DC. Long term low levels of DC current may have some effects that AC doesn't due to the effects of electrolysis, according to some posts in this thread.

You're more likely to die from higher voltages than low because they will travel farther through your body.

No. Current always flows all the way from one contact point through your body to the other contact point on your body. For instance from your hand touching a live circuit to your feet touching the ground. Higher voltage simply increases the amount of the current. (Except where the voltage is high enough to arc through the air and electrocute you from a conductor you're not touching.)

The actual chances of being electrocuted from normal circumstances of the average person is very low. It's hard to generate a short across your heart with current electrical codes. Sure you could burn yourself very badly, or cause muscle damage and soft tissue damage, but death is unlikely.

Yes, chances of electrocution are low. 500 or so per year in the use. Thank goodness.

No, it's not hard to get electrocuted. Work on a live house wiring circuit, and it's easy to electrocute yourself. The circuit breaker will not usually save you unless it's a GFCI breaker. Work on a consumer electronic device like a DVD player and it's easy to electrocute yourself. Once you remove the cover, there may well be exposed 115VAC terminals.

It may be hard to electrocute yourself if you use all your devices the way they were designed to be used. Many CPF members are electrical tinkerers. Many of them aren't engineers or electricians or any other kind of trained electrical professional. Many of us do extreme electrical things with normally low-voltage equipment. Many of us will open things up and probe voltages with the power on. Want to bet you couldn't electrocute yourself if you open up a 35W HID spotlight even though the battery is only 12V?

We should not get too callous about the dangers of electricity.

I'm an electrical engineer. I worked for years on electrical safety for consumer electronic equipment, factory equipment, international, US, and internal company safety standards, including the US National Electric Code. Not only do I understand the rules, I understand the underlying risks involved.

When I give advice, I do go overboard on pointing out even the unlikely scenarios because I know someone will go out and try it.
 

Apollo Cree

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Just because 99 healthy people are unharmed by an electric shock, it does not prove that 1 person might not have an undiagnosed heart condition or genetic predisposition that causes a fatality.

I suspect the the variation caused by how good a contact you make with the live circuit and ground makes more difference. Pressure, dampness, contact area, etc. makes an enormous difference. I've gotten just a glancing touch with household AC a number of time and gotten anything from just a tingle to a good kick.
 

Mr Happy

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I suspect the the variation caused by how good a contact you make with the live circuit and ground makes more difference. Pressure, dampness, contact area, etc. makes an enormous difference. I've gotten just a glancing touch with household AC a number of time and gotten anything from just a tingle to a good kick.
Right. What I'm trying to get across, though, is the problem with saying, "I once crossed a busy road safely without getting run over, therefore there is no danger involved in crossing a busy road."
 

Radiophile

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I just saw this somewhere on TV - the reason 110v AC is so dangerous isn't the voltage or current, it's the frequency. The heart beats at the frequency the brain tells it to with electrical impulses. When house current goes through your heart it makes it try to beat at 60 hertz which is impossible, so it stops. Same thing with DC. Your heart matches the frequency and stops.

Screwing around with house current is stupid - period. Turn off the breakers or make sure you offer no path to ground for the current no matter how little.

I'm an amateur radio operator and tinkering with radios while they are operating is absolutely necessary for alignment or repair depending on the problem. The first thing I learned was to only have one hand in the radio at a time especially if it is a tube radio and high voltages are present. That applies even with solid state devices and insulated instruments.

A broadcast engineer friend of mine has an internal scar in his right index finger. He got it while aligning a CB for a friend at his home. His wife called his name for something and it distracted him. His finger wasn't visibly burnt on the outside, but it was fried inside. That happened 20 years ago, and he still feels the weather change from the internal scar in his finger.
 

liveforphysics

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With my electric bikes, even soaking wet in the rain, I can touch the 48v battery sections indivdually and feel nothing more than a tickle. Doesn't feel much different than welding in the rain.

I try to avoid touching the dual 48v batteries when in series. 96vdc has never caused me any noticed physical damage, but it does trigger muscle action (at least in my body, doesn't seem to bother a buddy of mine).

These batteries are 20Ah Lithium Polymer packs with 25C discharge ability, meaning they have the potental to continously dump 500amps. Fortunately, our skin (even wet) is fantastic protection from shocks at the lower voltages like <100v.

Go under the skin, and cause the current path to include the heart, and almost any amount of voltage or current can kill you.
 
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n3eg

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Electronic circuitry in consumer electronics is commonly under 5V.

That's a bad thing to assume...

Most large flat panel monitors aren't lit by EL panels. I was surprised to draw an arc across two terminals in one, then found it was lit by two long fluorescent tubes with several hundred volts at 50kHz. Even EL panels run at 100 volts or more. The only true low voltage displays are LED displays, or ones backlit with LEDs like my modified TV at home.

I once worked on laser bar code scanners years ago - they ran on 10kV at 1ma. Yikes! Now they use 3 volt diodes...
 

SirJMD

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With my electric bikes, even soaking wet in the rain, I can touch the 48v battery sections indivdually and feel nothing more than a tickle. Doesn't feel much different than welding in the rain.

I try to avoid touching the dual 48v batteries when in series. 96vdc has never caused me any noticed physical damage, but it does trigger muscle action (at least in my body, doesn't seem to bother a buddy of mine).

These batteries are 20Ah Lithium Polymer packs with 25C discharge ability, meaning they have the potental to continously dump 500amps. Fortunately, our skin (even wet) is fantastic protection from shocks at the lower voltages like <100v.

Go under the skin, and cause the current path to include the heart, and almost any amount of voltage or current can kill you.

Reason why it doesnt kill you, its due to the resistance of the skin.
Worth reading: http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html


DC reacts to resistance more than AC

No, no, no and no. U = R * I. Electronics is no joke - please get your facts strait.


That's a bad thing to assume...

Most large flat panel monitors aren't lit by EL panels. I was surprised to draw an arc across two terminals in one, then found it was lit by two long fluorescent tubes with several hundred volts at 50kHz. Even EL panels run at 100 volts or more. The only true low voltage displays are LED displays, or ones backlit with LEDs like my modified TV at home.

I once worked on laser bar code scanners years ago - they ran on 10kV at 1ma. Yikes! Now they use 3 volt diodes...

Agree, Eventho alot of electronics uses logic 5V, its a bad idea to assume that all electronics uses max 5V. A switchmode powersupply can very well have around 500V at some areas.

I have a LED driver from a traffic light (230V supply), and it is doubling that input voltage to 460V. If i were to assume that it was 5V, i could easily have died. :oops:
 

recDNA

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Ok, theoretically in the right place you could probably be killed with 1ma @ 1v. More realistically speaking, when does DC voltage become dangerous to touch with your bare hands? 36v? 48? 75? How high does it need to be before you should be afraid of it like 120v sockets?

Just curious...

Ever get a little static shock? It's about 10,000 volts DC. Volts aren't the issue.
 

Magic Matt

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65535

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That's a bad thing to assume...

Most large flat panel monitors aren't lit by EL panels. I was surprised to draw an arc across two terminals in one, then found it was lit by two long fluorescent tubes with several hundred volts at 50kHz. Even EL panels run at 100 volts or more. The only true low voltage displays are LED displays, or ones backlit with LEDs like my modified TV at home.

I once worked on laser bar code scanners years ago - they ran on 10kV at 1ma. Yikes! Now they use 3 volt diodes...


It's true, computers drop 120VAC to less than 24VDC.

TV's and other similar devices like microwaves use step up transformers which do generate high voltages, but most devices like video game systems immediately drop voltage down to under 30VAC to run.
 

PMM

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Great thread :)

Would seem that 60v is deemed safe working voltage per power tools 1/2 supply voltage per wire so if you get a short of bare wire touch you don't get the full 120v.

An interesting subject - I know friends in the past have been daft in making up a 90v dc bar out of 3v button cell computer batteries which people press there fingers against the end and get a shock from.

After reading all the above and looking back that could have been deadly.

Always been aware Current plays a massive part, I have had the pleasure of having my hair stand up thanks to the silly voltages of a Vandergraph Generator :)

So a very enlightening thread :)
 

jtr1962

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An interesting subject - I know friends in the past have been daft in making up a 90v dc bar out of 3v button cell computer batteries which people press there fingers against the end and get a shock from.

After reading all the above and looking back that could have been deadly.
The key is to avoid giving the current a path through the heart. If you hold a stack of button cells between the fingers of one hand, you'll get a shock, but it's extremely unlikely to kill you as there is no path through the heart. However, those with rare heart conditions might still be in danger of being killed, perhaps from their heart stopping due to the stress.

Bottom line is never assume electricity is safe. I've gotten shocks from 5V electronics when test pins penetrated my skin. Thankfully I make sure that it can't happen on both hands at the same time. I've also gotten more than my share of high voltage shocks from vacuum fluorescent display power supplies. I needed to work on them live for troubleshooting purposes. Again, so long as I only touch the supply with one hand at a time it's highly unlikely I'll die, but I'll be the first to admit working with live high-voltage electronics is never a good idea. No matter how careful you are to avoid touching live components while probing, sooner or later it happens, even if you're highly experienced. I'm an EE and do this stuff for a living, yet I can attest to my share of "accidents". Thankfully I don't work with high-voltage step-up supplies on any kind of regular basis any more. I do regularly work with 120 VAC in my projects, but there's no reason for the device to be plugged in while I'm working on it. I also always make it a habit to discharge any high-voltage filter caps several times before touching anything. Yes, several times. Sometimes electrolytic caps have a residual voltage memory. They might creep back up to 10 or 20 or more volts after you short them to bleed off the voltage. I also generally incorporate high value resistors to bleed off the voltage within several minutes tops just for added safety.
 

Mr Happy

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Would seem that 60v is deemed safe working voltage per power tools 1/2 supply voltage per wire so if you get a short of bare wire touch you don't get the full 120v.
This is not at all right and betrays a deep misunderstanding of electricity. The domestic electrical supply in the USA is 120 V at normal household outlets, and it remains 120 V when fed to power tools. If you get an electric shock from your drill or hedge trimmer it will potentially be 120 V. Countless people have been electrocuted while using power tools.
 

PMM

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This is not at all right and betrays a deep misunderstanding of electricity. The domestic electrical supply in the USA is 120 V at normal household outlets, and it remains 120 V when fed to power tools. If you get an electric shock from your drill or hedge trimmer it will potentially be 120 V. Countless people have been electrocuted while using power tools.


Sorry prob should explain myself better on reading I can see clarification on what I was trying to say.

... 1st I am in the UK

I am talking worksite / building industry i.e industrial 240v is stepped down in a 120v transformer and output center tapped voltage is 60v-0v-60v out to the tool not domestic home tools.

But I think our supply got dropped to 230 or even 220 as I see 55-0-55 commonly touted these days.
 

Mr Happy

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Sorry prob should explain myself better on reading I can see clarification on what I was trying to say.

... 1st I am in the UK

I am talking worksite / building industry i.e industrial 240v is stepped down in a 120v transformer and output center tapped voltage is 60v-0v-60v out to the tool not domestic home tools.

But I think our supply got dropped to 230 or even 220 as I see 55-0-55 commonly touted these days.
Ah. Helpful hint: you can fill in your location in your user profile so people know where you are.

I don't think the supply did get dropped to 230 V as the whole country is connected by the National Grid and it would be too difficult to change all the installed equipment. What they did is declare the European voltage standard to be 230 V "plus/minus 10%". Since 230 V + 10% = 253 V the UK's 240 V supply is within range and it "magically" became 230 V without actually changing anything.

(By the way, last time I was back there I saw how the banning of light bulbs has taken effect. That is so crazy...)
 
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