Why Titanium?

[jblackwood]

Ok. I got my first Ti light from the great Don himself and I've had trouble deciding if the high price was worth it more for the beam qualities (low flood vs. high throwy) or for the fact that it's made out of Ti. I've since decided that it's both but for the sake of the thread let me say . . .
it's a pure material. Someone else mentioned if it gets scratched, what's underneath is still the same material as the outer finish. That in and of itself is worth a lot to me since my wife drops stuff . . . a lot. She's put more dings and cracked more anodizing of my HAIII lights than I care to let her know she has (she'd feel horrible, poor thing, so I just cover it with black permanent marker). I don't have to worry about that with the Ti lights.

Also, someone else just said "don't get one if you think you'll only stop at one." Heck, I couldn't just buy one LS20! I had to get two. Now I'm in for two more Quark Ti lights and I've got a Wee hanging from my neck. Jeez, I love the metal. It looks good, and feels great.

 

[AlecGold]

I don't think I'm fully neutral on titanium, I've got way to much Ti stuff to say I'm neutral.
But what I noted on my titanium mugs is that they retain their shape, are much stronger than the aluminium I had before and are easier to clean, although I wouldn't recommend baking in them. My Titanium mug has lasted me now for over 8 years, when my aluminium mugs wouldn't last me a season. The alu's got bend in my pack, I even had one melting when I did put it in a coal-fire to heat up the content. The titanium I forgot turned deep dark blue, but certainly didn't melt. So titanium can have it's uses, for sure!

I've made a titanium notebook, with a titanium coil, with teslin-plastic-sheet-paper. Why? because it made a far better notebook than the aluminium I had before. The aluminium got really dirty over time and it bended and dinged way to easy. Ow and it corroded in a marine environment until it had more crystals on it than the jar of salt I left in the shed. So titanium was a better. I had a carbon fibre as well, 2mm thick sheets and they cracked when I didn't use them properly. I didn't abuse them, but on the beach I grabbed the notebook and got up on my feet, supporting myself on the notebook. Underneath was a little pebble and the carbon-fibre cover just cracked. Darn, not a good material for a notebook cover, but an expensive experiment (the carbon was water-jet cut at 4000 bar (??60.000 PSI??) and those machine's aint cheap, that's for sure)

Back on topic to titanium lights. I live in a river delta, on an island, I like to go kayaking, I like to get into the water/sea/surf. I swim across rivers which are 300-400 meters wide, I plough through mud-fields when the tide is out.
All of my surefires did survive this (although the selector ring of the U2 didn't like it) and the SF's where perfectly usefull. But the dirt seems to get into every crack and stain the alu lights. If the light dings, the bare aluminium gets stained as well. And SF lights do get those dings easily if you climb out of the water onto a rocky shore that is slippery as h*ll. But more important to me is that the SF's don't have flood-lighting, and don't have a really low-low that I use for map reading, writing, reading a book. And that is where the titanium light's from Don comes in:
a Sundrop with low levels, flood and it is made from titanium.
Would it have worked, if it where made from aluminium? likely yes. pretty well.
but now I've got a light made from titanium and I love it.
My wife calls it man-jewelry. I think she's right.

Just one last thing, I think the termal properties of titanium are a non-issue.
My HAIII aluminium surefires are just as bad at conducting heat through the HAIII into the still standing air as my titanium light
One of the worst conductors of heat is still standing air. so you need to hold the light to get warmth away.

As a ceramic:
Thermal conductivity 25.08 W/mK at room temperature.
CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.281

As a single crystal:
Thermal conductivity 43.05 W/mK at temp=20 C.
CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.282

And at higher temperatures it only gets worse:
Thermal conductivity 16.72 .. 28.84 W/mK at temp=100 C.
CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.281
Thermal conductivity 12.54 .. 26.75 W/mK at temp=200 C.
CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.281

But now look at air:
Thermal conductivity of Air 0.024 W/mK
That is 1000 times (yes, thousand) worse than titanium.

What can I say, AFAIK, thermal conductivity between HAIII and Ti is a non-issue in testing stands, and when you hold the light, the difference between a layer of HAIII and titanium is likely to be very, very small.
If you happen to have a non-coated aluminium light, the difference is bigger, but I couldn't use, as the salt water would corrode the threads within a day to such a bad shape that I could only throw the light away after the battery is empty.

Pfooeeeiiieee, My post is almost as long as some of Don's posts :nana:

 

[mr.snakeman]

I´ve got 3 Ti lights now that I EDC and more on the way. Love em´all.

 

[fnj]

It might be helpful to list thermal conductivities of some materials of interest in W/(m-K) - higher is more conductive; i.e. "better":

[FONT=Courier New]Diamond        2000
Silver          406
Copper          386
Gold            314
Aluminum        205
6061-T6         167
Brass (Cu63%)   125
Cast Iron        55
Bronze (Sn11%)   42
Aluminum Oxide   30
Zinc Oxide       21
Stainless Steel  16.3
Titanium         15.6
Thermal Paste     8
Ti-6Al-4V         5.8
Marble            2.1
Granite           1.7
Polymer           0.33
FRP               0.23
Rubber            0.16
Wood              0.1
Air               0.024[/FONT]

(Note: thermal conductivity values are a bit difficult to pin down, and you will see variation in the figures, most dramatically for wood; the figures above are basically what I found for lowballs in every case).

I admit to being stunned (a) that pure titanium was so low, and (b) that titanium alloy is so dramatically lower than pure titanium. The old standby 6061-T6 aluminum alloy really is an amazingly good combination of mechanical, thermal, and other properties.

However, titanium is more than an order of magnitude superior thermally to plastic (which has been suggested as an ideal flashlight material), and just plain off the chart esthetically.

 

[AlecGold]

try to find aluminium-oxide that forms when you make HAIII

 

[saabgoblin]

Originally, I hated Ti but that was partly due to my ignorance and minimal exposure to ultralight backpacking cookware. All of the Ti cookware that I have seen was bead blasted and I assumed that texture was too close to raw Al and would therefore oxidize.

Personally, I am not too concerned on the thermal conductivity for my flashlight needs because 98% of my edc usage is in short blasts so heat buildup isn't my top concern and when it is, I'll choose another light for my needs. The metal is very similar in appearance to SS but stronger with less weight and a more subtle understated appearance. HA is nice but I like raw metals the best, brass, SS, Ti... because scratches dents and dings become character marks, just an aesthetic choice although weathered HA AL is nice as well in my book. Raw Al just feels dirty to me and I have done a lot of work on a potters wheel and my hands have been turned black within a few rotations of the wheelhead, kinda nasty.

I still don't like Ti for cooking while backpacking because it is spun or molded so thin that the material deforms very easy when stuffed in a pack and heat transfer is more important to me for that purpose although this may be negated by the thickness or lack thereof in the walls of the pot.

Aesthetically I prefer smooth or finished Ti as opposed to BB but that is purely subjective. So basically you get the look and similar feel of a SS flashlight with the weight advantage of Al without Al's detracting factors.

Thanks for all the tech specs:bow: and I hope that you don't mind my purely subjective opinions.

 

[AlecGold]

I certainly don't mind your subjective opinions. There is a lot of madness in using Ti and there is some usefullness.
Madness because of the price and the difficulties in making ti-lights.
But then again, if you're a flashaholic and/or are often in salt, muddy and sandy environments, these titanium lights are the best.
Just like a titanium notebook does it so well (combined with Teslin for paper, teslin is cooool
What wonders me most is the heath-managment thing, as (pure) titanium is just as good as conduction warmth as the aluminium-oxide that forms the HAIII skin.

 

[bmstrong]

>>Just like a titanium notebook does it so well (combined with Teslin for paper, teslin is cooool

Do you happen to have a link to this particular product?

 

[AlecGold]

I have a very good link, I made it myself.
Well, made two and sold one. It wasn't a cheap or easy task to make.
http://edcforums.com/index.php?topic=24991.0
It's on EDC forums, if your not a member yet, it's a good forum to hang around.
Titanium can be very hard to work with, but I still use it since I made it in feb. 09
edit: or did you meant the Teslin?

 

[fnj]

try to find aluminium-oxide that forms when you make HAIII

Added aluminum oxide to the table. The conductivity of the outer treatment, be it anodizing, paint, or whatever, is not really of great consequence, because it is so thin. Think of a sheet of newspaper, which is a lousy conductor. If you try to pick up a hot dish with only a single thickness of newspaper under your fingers, you will get burned. The heat is conducted easily through the newspaper because it only has to travel a trivial distance. Similarly, thermal paste works when properly used as an extremely thin layer.

 

[Fulgeo]

Been reading thru this post and although allot of people have been dancing around what I think is the most useful property of titanium. It is one of the most hypoallergenic of metals. I would say it is physically the strongest hypoallergenic metal there is. Stainless steel used to be the metal of choice for making pins for bone fracture repair and artificial joints and such. They industry now prefers titanium and alloys of titanium. Stainless steel contains nickel and up to 10% of the population is to some degree allergic to nickel. There are also health issue associated with too much raw aluminum contact with skin and ingestion that have been covered in this thread. So where am I going with this? Well I think a titanium flashlight finds a home when we wear it against our skin. I think it would be the metal of choice for the small lanyard flashlights that some of us wear around our necks. As for heat conductivity I think an all silver flashlight would rock, but if you are going to do it better hurry since silver is $16.00+ an ounce .

 

[AlecGold]

@fulgeo, I'm not allergic, well, I'm allergic, but not to metals, just allergic for working * atchoo*, darn there you *atchoo* go, don't say that *atchoo* word
And silver isn't that good, look at diamonds..... and they are forever :nana:
I've had an all silver light but it was soooo fragile. not because it was thin, but it is easily scratched, dented and just not the material of choice for things like flashlights IMHO

@fnj, the layer of oxidizing isn't as thin as a sheet of paper.
And when touching you have a contact, when lifting a plate you even have contact AND pressure, which makes it even much better conductive. to stay with your example, thermal paste works best in the smallest possible layer and even better if you have permanent pressure at the surfaces.

 

[Fulgeo]

AlecGold,

Diamonds are a girls best friend and all....but I am a dude!

The nice thing about silver is its heat conductivity. Better than copper. Someone in this thread had mentioned that a copper flashlight would be could for heat conductivity. I say silver would be better. As for strength funny how just a little bit of copper added to silver makes it much stronger and wear resistant. Sterling silver (92.5% silver + 7.5% copper) or Coin silver (90% silver + 10% copper) has fairly good wear resistance. I think it might be the cats meow for flashlights. Silver is rumored to actually be good for you in small quantities so a little silver metal absorption would not hurt you a bit. Jump over to the flashlight museum sometime and look at the copper and brass flashlights of old. They used to even have gold plated copper flashlights 80+ years ago for those of us that like gold plated flashlights (*cough* LuxLuthor *cough*). Oh and I like to keep the "thermal paste" away from my skin, especially the palm area. Its a sin!

 

[AlecGold]

you're right about the diamonds, that's for sure hahaha. lol.

but as I said, the silver was 925 btw, but it still is easily deformed and dented. Oke, if you make them like McGizmo it might not get oval, but it would tend to get a bit heavy, I guess.

Why not the thermal paste? It's full of silver. I don't like to get my hands dirty, but that is my normal modus operandi

 

[fnj]

Silver is a toxic heavy metal. As an intact slug of metal, I would not be worried. But I would be very careful with thermal paste containing silver. Take particular care not to transfer even the slightest trace to the eyes, or get it into a cut in the skin.

 

[fnj]

@fnj, the layer of oxidizing isn't as thin as a sheet of paper.

Common copy paper is 4 mils. With hard anodizing, 50% penetration into the substrate and 50% growth over original dimensions occurs for a total thickness of 0.5 to 4 mils.

[1] http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JuliaSherlis.shtml
[2] http://www.defelsko.com/applications/anodizing/Anodizing.htm

 

[fnj]

 

[AlecGold]

Silver is a toxic heavy metal. As an intact slug of metal, I would not be worried. But I would be very careful with thermal paste containing silver. Take particular care not to transfer even the slightest trace to the eyes, or get it into a cut in the skin.

Good to know, lucky I've always use qtips and the likes to apply it.

Common copy paper is 4 mils. With hard anodizing, 50% penetration into the substrate and 50% growth over original dimensions occurs for a total thickness of 0.5 to 4 mils.

[1] http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JuliaSherlis.shtml
[2] http://www.defelsko.com/applications/anodizing/Anodizing.htm

hahaha, oke, oke, perhaps, just perhaps aluminium might be the best economical material for flashlights. But I still prefer the titanium. You really can't make me change my thoughts on that one

 

[fnj]

You really can't make me change my thoughts on that one

Nor would I want to. I myself am a titanium nutcase. I just love the stuff. I love its luster. I love its almost unmatched resistance to sea water corrosion. Am I starting to sound a little too much like Goldfinger?

 

[Marduke]

Just don't use any anhydrous methanol based cleaner (more common than you might think) on Ti lights.