ZebraLight H502 XM-L

AnAppleSnail

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When the tint will be almost the same: What are the (relevant) advantages of the expected 502w versus 502c?

One way to represent a light source is by CCT and CRI. CCT is 'Color Correlated Temperature.' If I had a black-body (Something like a tungsten filament) and heated it, what temperature would most-closely match a given light source? Noontime daylight is around 5000-6000K, sunset 3000-4000K, and a hot electric stove coil around 1000K.

CRI is the 'Color Rendering Index.' If you take the spectral power distribution and overlay it with that same black-body of some temperature, how much does it overlap? 1 is perfect overlap. However, you could imagine a light with more-saturated red/orange output would give better color perception than a CRI of 1, even though this distortion would reduce the CRI.

Edit: I was corrected on these CCTs. Thanks, Diablo!
Generally speaking, having a light source with a CCT between 4000-6000K and a CRI near 100 will give stunning color perception and recording in photos. That's the fuss; the 'High CRI' aspect, along with higher-than-usual CCT. The 'c' (CRI) is around 4000K, the 'w' (Warmer, 'Neutral-White') is around 4200K, the 'd' (daylight) around 5000K.

Edit2: For further comparison
I am still flipping pancakes over my Oveready "High CRI" Nichia LED light. It has a 4500K CCT with 92 CRI. It is a triple emitter, making it quite floody and powerful. Using this thing in the garden after dark looks like I bought a bottle of sun to work with. If I get a headlamp-style P60 host, this dropin will be a top contender just for making it look like daylight (Down to the brightness).
 
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ibu

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@Bolster
Thanks for the helpful comment.

Edit:
And as well @AnAppleSnail

I will wait some month for the "w".
 
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Diablo_331

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One way to represent a light source is by CCT and CRI. CCT is 'Color Correlated Temperature.' If I had a black-body (Something like a tungsten filament) and heated it, what temperature would most-closely match a given light source? Noontime daylight is around 5000-6000K, sunset 3000-4000K, and a hot electric stove coil around 1000K.

CRI is the 'Color Rendering Index.' If you take the spectral power distribution and overlay it with that same black-body of some temperature, how much does it overlap? 1 is perfect overlap. However, you could imagine a light with more-saturated red/orange output would give better color perception than a CRI of 1, even though this distortion would reduce the CRI.

Generally speaking, having a light source with a CCT between 4000-6000K and a CRI near 100 will give stunning color perception and recording in photos. That's the fuss; the 'High CRI' aspect, along with higher-than-usual CCT. The 'w' is around 4000K, the 'c' around 5000K.

Wonderful post AnAppleSnail. Just a small correction if you will.. The W is 4200k, the D 5000k, and the C is 4000k.
 

B0wz3r

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The general rule of thumb is that physical intensity needs to be tripled for a perceived doubling of brightness. So, a 100 lumen light would need to be increased to 300 to be perceived as twice as bright, on average across a range of observers.

This also assumes that one light is being increased, or that two lights with equal power spectra but different objective intensities are being compared. If the power spectra were to differ, other perceptual mechanisms would be invoked and increase or reduce the perceived difference in brightness.

To detect a difference between two stimuli, the amount of difference depends on the stimuli in question. For something like electrical current, a slight increase in voltage produces a tremendous increase in perceived pain from the shock. For other stimuli, it's the opposite (like above, for light) and you need a large increase for a very small perceived difference. In general, across many different stimuli, a change of about 10% in the objective physical intensity of the stimulus is required to exceed the difference threshold and produce a JND (just noticeable difference) for the observer.

We're expecting the 502w to give more lumens--whether it adds enough to give a functional advantage is a different question altogether. It's often said a 100% increase is necessary for a light to look noticeably brighter; it's also commonly said that you may be able to detect a 20% increase in a side-by-side test.

The H502c tops out at 142 according to the mfgr, so the above guidelines would mean the H502w would need to make 170 lumens (which is what an H502d puts out) before it would be detectably brighter than an H502c in a side-by-side test, and would need to make 280 (which is close to the H502's output of 260) to be "noticeably brighter."

I've seen estimates of the H502w's lumens, but don't remember what they were...does anyone know, can someone help?

If you look at the SC51 and the SC51w, or the SC51f to the SC51fw, the w version is 84% (ie 16% dimmer) compared to the non-w version. So if you apply that calculation to the H502 at 260, that would put the H502w at around 218 lumens. If that's close, then it would place the H502w somewhere above "detectably brighter on a side-by-side test" but not as bright as the standard for "noticeably brighter," when compared to an H502c.

Which is a very longwinded way of saying: "A little brighter."

What the 'w' will give up is a little color rendition. Based on my tests and photos which you can find in this thread, the difference between 'w' and 'c' is subtle.
 
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Bolster

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The general rule of thumb...

Educational, as always, Bowz. You are a veritable fount of good information. Didn't know that about electrical shocks, and given my background, I should have...:crazy:

So, you're saying a 10% difference may be noticeable on a side-by-side test of two identical tints?
 
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DIΩDΣ

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Wouldn't it be fun to mount two ZLs at 6 and 12 o-clock around the lens' objective.
Well my hope was since the 502 is so floody only one should be needed. Still havent ordered one yet. Debating making the jump to the 600 and Li-ion instead. Would be better to add to the bike for a headlamp. But then again I rarely bike after dark. Probably more uses for a true flood.
 

B0wz3r

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Educational, as always, Bowz. You are a veritable fount of good information. Didn't know that about electrical shocks, and given my background, I should have...:crazy:

So, you're saying a 10% difference may be noticeable on a side-by-side test of two identical tints?

Yup. It even works for computer processing speed. It does vary, of course, from stimulus to stimulus, but it is a good general rule that holds for most things we're trying to detect a difference between, perceptually.

I've taught classes in sensory perception a number of times now, and one thing I see that students have difficulty understanding is the distinction between what's called the difference threshold, and the just noticeable difference (JND). I mention it, because this distinction is a fundamental one for understanding how perception works to create the experiences we have. Simply put, the difference threshold is the objective measure of the difference in physical intensity between two stimuli, whereas the JND is the perceptual correlate of the difference threshold; in other words, our subjective conscious experience of the intensity difference. While they are two aspects of a given physical phenomenon/stimulus, they're not the same thing. And, that's what throws most people about it.

If you're interested, there are a lot of excellent sources about perceptual science on the web. If you have any other questions about this stuff, just let me know. :)
 

Esko

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The general rule of thumb is that physical intensity needs to be tripled for a perceived doubling of brightness. So, a 100 lumen light would need to be increased to 300 to be perceived as twice as bright, on average across a range of observers.

Uneducated people think it should be "double the lumens, double the brightness", which is clearly wrong. I thought that the general consensus in CPF was that to double the perceivable brightness, one needs to quadruble the intensity. That is the number I have referred multiple times outside CPF. I have also seen a reference to natural logarithm. And now you say that the intensity should be tripled.

I guess you should know the best, so, could you give a scientifically solid source which explains this phenomena. Preferably one which can be found online (generally accepted articles or good reviews in scientific journals are fine, too, I can access them through University). Next time I need to explain the phenomena to someone else, I want neither be uncertain about it myself, nor start the explanation with: "I don't know exactly, but...". Thanks.
 

peterharvey73

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Mathematically, the total output in lumens = the intensity in lux multiplied by the surface area of illumination.
One of the problems with light is that the word "brightness" can mean both the total lumen output, or the intensity of light.
Thus, a greater total output in lumens is said to be brighter.
A greater intensity in lux, is also said to be brighter too.
So indeed, if we double the lumens, we double the brightness.
However, if we use the specific term lux, then doubling the lumens doesn't necessarily double the brightness in lux; it may be the same lux, illuminating double the surface area.

The eye's perception of the brightness is apparently logarithmic; I don't know the exact power of n.
However, with sound, we must multiply the power to the power of three, ie eight times, to double the sound volume...
 
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Bolster

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It's an interesting discussion, but when it comes to buying a new or upgraded light, a 'just noticeable difference' is meaningless to me. I'm much more interested in what the eye would consider a "significant difference," where you're confident one light is definitely brighter than the other, without needing to do careful side-by-sides or same-light-but-increase-brightness comparisons.

What I'm saying is, I'm more interested in the percentage increase where you'd say, "I can see more with the new model, so maybe it's time to buy a new light," rather than "I think maybe I saw a little difference on a side by side comparison, possibly." The lower boundary of perception just isn't compelling to me.

I've gotten the impression that the "significantly brighter" standard was around +100% brighter, and that tends to be how I space out my purchases, if possible. If my current light does 150, I probably won't rebuy until it gets close to 300, etc. Although I bet the "rebuy" percentage is different for everyone. There may be people who are willing to rebuy when the light is +50% brighter, or maybe even +25% brighter, just because they like having the latest and greatest. But that's a different sort of motivation. That's not a functional motivation anymore.

I would not even consider replacing for a +10-20% increase, because that (to me) isn't a functional difference for the use I put my lights to.
 
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pobox1475

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I have a H30w that has been great. The jump to a 502 is more from the ability to run a single Eneloop instead of the RCR123 needed in my 30. Am a little curious how much more lumes the 502 will yield though?
 

Esko

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Mathematically, the total output in lumens = the intensity in lux multiplied by the surface area of illumination.
One of the problems with light is that the word "brightness" can mean both the total lumen output, or the intensity of light.
Thus, a greater total output in lumens is said to be brighter.
A greater intensity in lux, is also said to be brighter too.
So indeed, if we double the lumens, we double the brightness.
However, if we use the specific term lux, then doubling the lumens doesn't necessarily double the brightness in lux; it may be the same lux, illuminating double the surface area.

The eye's perception of the brightness is apparently logarithmic; I don't know the exact power of n.
However, with sound, we must multiply the power to the power of three, ie eight times, to double the sound volume...

With sound, I thought it was a tenfold increase in power that was needed to double the perceived sound volume. Oh well. :shrug:

It was the perceived brightness that I was interested in. If different people just sense it differently, it is good to know, too. Anyone there with any in-depth knowledge/information (with credible sources)?
 

moozooh

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I have a H30w that has been great. The jump to a 502 is more from the ability to run a single Eneloop instead of the RCR123 needed in my 30. Am a little curious how much more lumes the 502 will yield though?

The H502 will yield more lumens on every M and H setting (after all you don't want more lumens on the low ones...) and have better runtimes on H and L settings compared to an RCR123 in H30. Overall it's a much more power-efficient product that can go both brighter and dimmer.
 

B0wz3r

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Uneducated people think it should be "double the lumens, double the brightness", which is clearly wrong. I thought that the general consensus in CPF was that to double the perceivable brightness, one needs to quadruble the intensity. That is the number I have referred multiple times outside CPF. I have also seen a reference to natural logarithm. And now you say that the intensity should be tripled.

I guess you should know the best, so, could you give a scientifically solid source which explains this phenomena. Preferably one which can be found online (generally accepted articles or good reviews in scientific journals are fine, too, I can access them through University). Next time I need to explain the phenomena to someone else, I want neither be uncertain about it myself, nor start the explanation with: "I don't know exactly, but...". Thanks.

The definitive work on detecting differences in stimuli was done by the perceptual psychologist S.S. Stevens. I have several of his classic research papers in PDF format, but none of the free image hosting services support multipage PDF's, so I can't post any of them.

Discussions of Stevens' work can be found in most any textbook on sensory perception or visual perception. One of the best, although it is a bit out of date now, has not been updated or revised, is Visual Perception by Stephen Palmer, who was a professor of mine when I was an undergraduate at Cal Berkeley. Stevens proposed an exponential equation that describes the relationship between objective and perceived intensity, that largely holds for just about all common stimuli.

It's true that perceptual increases in many cases are logarithmic in nature, but in Stevens' equation, this is represented simply by using a fractional exponent. Each stimulus and its mode of presentation has its own exponent. To the best of my memory, Stevens found an average exponent of 3 across a wide variety of light sources and sizes, but I'll have to look it up to provide an exact value. So, as I mentioned, it is a tripling of the objective intensity of a light that produces a perceived doubling in brightness.

Mathematically, the total output in lumens = the intensity in lux multiplied by the surface area of illumination.
One of the problems with light is that the word "brightness" can mean both the total lumen output, or the intensity of light.
Thus, a greater total output in lumens is said to be brighter.
A greater intensity in lux, is also said to be brighter too.
So indeed, if we double the lumens, we double the brightness.
However, if we use the specific term lux, then doubling the lumens doesn't necessarily double the brightness in lux; it may be the same lux, illuminating double the surface area.

The eye's perception of the brightness is apparently logarithmic; I don't know the exact power of n.
However, with sound, we must multiply the power to the power of three, ie eight times, to double the sound volume...

The problem with this is that this is the objective measure only; it does not take into account the particulars of how the visual system works as a neurological information processing mechanism. This is why I consider lumens to be an inadequate measure of brightness, because it doesn't take actual the actual characteristics of visual perception into account.

And, things get a whole lot worse when you start varying the power spectra involved as well. For example, take two objectively bright lights, one red, and one blue (both of equivalent lumens, lux, etc.) Have an observer compare them side by side, and they will perceive the red one as brighter than the blue one, despite them both being of equal objective intensity. Why is this?

The answer lies in the proportion of the three types of photoreceptors in the retina. On average, 60% of all photoreceptors are long-wavelength (red) cones, while only about 10% are short-wavelength (blue) cones. The brain encodes brightness by the amount of incoming signal from the different types of receptors. Because we have many more red cones than blue cones, the signal the red cones sends to the brain is much stronger than the signal sent by the blue cones, and we perceive the red as brighter as a result. I won't even get into the Purkinje shift in color brightness that occurs in mesopic vision right now... I don't want to type it all out. :p

It's an interesting discussion, but when it comes to buying a new or upgraded light, a 'just noticeable difference' is meaningless to me. I'm much more interested in what the eye would consider a "significant difference," where you're confident one light is definitely brighter than the other, without needing to do careful side-by-sides or same-light-but-increase-brightness comparisons.

What I'm saying is, I'm more interested in the percentage increase where you'd say, "I can see more with the new model, so maybe it's time to buy a new light," rather than "I think maybe I saw a little difference on a side by side comparison, possibly." The lower boundary of perception just isn't compelling to me.

I've gotten the impression that the "significantly brighter" standard was around +100% brighter, and that tends to be how I space out my purchases, if possible. If my current light does 150, I probably won't rebuy until it gets close to 300, etc. Although I bet the "rebuy" percentage is different for everyone. There may be people who are willing to rebuy when the light is +50% brighter, or maybe even +25% brighter, just because they like having the latest and greatest. But that's a different sort of motivation. That's not a functional motivation anymore.

I would not even consider replacing for a +10-20% increase, because that (to me) isn't a functional difference for the use I put my lights to.
By definition, a JND is the smallest difference in objective intensity between two stimuli (in this case lights) for an observer to recognize they're different brightnesses. It is the intensity difference that produces a correct distinction 50% of the time an observer tries to tell if the two lights are of different brightnesses. So, the use of the term "significant" here really is only in terms of probability, not in terms of what would be considered a "useful" or "usable" difference.

The probability computations in all of this can get a little daunting, and require a fair amount of mathematics and statistics to accurately describe and compute. Simply put, in perceptual psychology we borrow the methods used in communications theory for signal detection. When an observer is trying to determine if two stimuli are different brightnesses, there are four possible outcomes; a "hit" is when the two are actually different, and the observer says they see that one is brighter than the other; a "miss" is when they are actually different, but the observer doesn't perceive the difference; a "false alarm" is when the two are not different, but the observer reports they are, and a "correct rejection" is when the lights aren't different, and the observer says they're not.

The advantage of this is this method provides a way to determine an observer's response bias; whether they tend to say "no" more often, or whether they tend to say "yes" more often. This can also be changed by motivations, or possible penalties for the detection task. If you reward observers with, say, 25 cents for every Hit, and penalize them 5 cents for every wrong answer, they're going to say Yes more often to maximize their reward. They'll get more Hits, but also more False Alarms. If you reverse these amounts, they'll say No more often to minimize their penalty. The important measure that's computed from this is called D-prime; the ratio of an observer's Hits to False Alarms. A D-prime value of 1 indicate's their just guessing; performing at random chance, and their individual ability to discriminate differences between the stimuli is poor, or they don't care about their performance and literally are just guessing. As D-prime increases, so does the observer's sensitivity to detect the difference; they get more and more Hits, but their False Alarm rate stays low. So, one person may produce more Hits than another, but if they also have a high False Alarm rate, they're actually not as sensitive as someone who produced less Hits, but many fewer False Alarms.

So, as you can see there is a lot of individual difference between observers in this. As I mention about Stevens' work above, the exponents he produced originate from averaging the results across a large sample of observers. What might be a usable difference for one person might not even be noticed by another person, such as someone with nyctalopia (night blindness). Stevens used a method called magnitude estimation to quantify his perceptual results. While there has been some justified criticism of the method, in general it works quite well, and Stevens' results have been very robust over time and are still quite valid and useful. Better methods do exist, such as signal detection methods I mention above, but they are much more labor and data intensive, even though they do allow the quantification of individual differences and more precise results.

In general though, across a large sample of observers, Stevens' Law and his results (unique exponents in his equation for different stimuli) are still the best heuristic we have for evaluating perceptual changes in an observer.
 
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skycamnz

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BOwz3r, am in awe of your dissertation. WOW!!!! You have an impressive handle on the intricacies and correlation of measured and perceived levels of illumination. Thank you for going to the trouble to try and explain to us mere mortals..... :)
 

Pretbek

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Thanks B0wz3r, it was thorough brain-dumps like this, reviews like moozooh's and the H51 mod thread that made me get an H502d. That's right, "made me". It wasn't me, I couldn't help it, it is all your fault!

I might be a flashlight newbie, but I have developed some sense of light color preference while looking at and using auxiliary lighting for motorcycles, where tastes also runs the gambit (gamut?) from "Brighter is better" to "More natural light makes you see better, even if it's less intense". I'm mostly in the "natural" camp, hence my choice to get the "d".

When the H502d arrives in about a week, we'll see if I made the right color choice. To be honest I expect to be overwhelmed by mah bestest light evah, so it will be all good.
 

Bolster

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So, the use of the term "significant" here really is only in terms of probability, not in terms of what would be considered a "useful" or "usable" difference.

Yes, you intuited I was using the term "significant" in the non-statistical sense. I was using "significant" and "functional" as interchangeable terms. So, do you have any ideas on what the significant/functional/useful/usable threshold is? It's often repeated here on CPF it's around 100%, but...you're the dude with the degree...what say you?
 

Esko

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-> B0wz3r

Thank you for your educating and thorough answer. I have yet to hunt down a reference (something that you named or some easier to find/newer text book on visual perception). One part of your answer did raise immediate need to ask more, though...

The problem with this is that this is the objective measure only; it does not take into account the particulars of how the visual system works as a neurological information processing mechanism. This is why I consider lumens to be an inadequate measure of brightness, because it doesn't take actual the actual characteristics of visual perception into account.

And, things get a whole lot worse when you start varying the power spectra involved as well. For example, take two objectively bright lights, one red, and one blue (both of equivalent lumens, lux, etc.) Have an observer compare them side by side, and they will perceive the red one as brighter than the blue one, despite them both being of equal objective intensity. Why is this?

The answer lies in the proportion of the three types of photoreceptors in the retina. On average, 60% of all photoreceptors are long-wavelength (red) cones, while only about 10% are short-wavelength (blue) cones. The brain encodes brightness by the amount of incoming signal from the different types of receptors. Because we have many more red cones than blue cones, the signal the red cones sends to the brain is much stronger than the signal sent by the blue cones, and we perceive the red as brighter as a result.

For example, Xeno E03 is a light that can be bought with three different leds. According to Cree, these are the minimum luminous fluxes of the leds used in Xeno at 700mA:

XM-L U2 cool white, 300 lumens
XM-L T6 neutral white, 280 lumens
XM-L T4 warm white, 240 lumens

The differences in output are 7-25% depending on which leds (flashlights) you compare and how you calculate it. But if you ask CPF'ers, pretty much all of them will say that neutral white looks dimmer than cool white, and warm white looks distinctively dimmer than cool white. Even though the differences are just around the difference threshold or JND border (for similar tinted lights).

And now to the part that I don't quite understand.

You wrote that if comparing a blue light and red light (similar lumens etc.), the red one is seen as the brighter one. Cool white leds are rich in blue light. Warm whites aren't; instead, they emit lots of more red and orange light. Why don't we perceive the light emitted by warm white leds brighter than the one emitted by cool white leds? Or at least as bright. The differences in objective output (lumens) are rather small anyway; If eyes are more sensitive to red light, this would sound like a logical outcome.
 
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