Malkoff M60LL On 2x AA

[GreyShark]

It's been on continuously for 49.5 hours, it now has about a 20 foot throw. It's still enough light to avoid tripping or bumping into anything or to read by.

It's been on so long it's starting to get very boring and I'd like to play with ridiculously super shiny bright lights instead but at the same time I'm compelled to see just how much longer this thing can continue to deliver useful levels of light. It seems like you could certainly be trapped in a cave by an avalanche with worse setups.

 

[Sgt. LED]

This is a great thread!

:thumbsup:

 

[etc]

Try running it on a 4/3af cell and watch the runtime you get!

does that mean I could replace 3xAA NiMh cells with 2 x 4/3AF cells? How does that work? Would my total capacity (mAh) increase?

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3240

 

[Sgt. LED]

Yes, many more Mah (4500 VS 2500) than the AA cells but near the same voltage. They are fatter.

You would really get a kick out of them.

 

[etc]

Looks like they are longer at 67mm, so that 2 of them would be slightly shorter than 3xAA.

Would they fit in the 3xAA FiveMega body? Looks like not, at 18mm. Looks like I would have to use the Leef/FiveMega body assuming it's long enough. 4x123 = 2x4/3AF according to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3240

 

[gswitter]

It may be a moot point. The voltage from 2x NiMH cells might not be high enough to get much out of a direct-driven XR-E.

 

[etc]

well, theoretically you could put a lower powered drop in it that would run well?

But it's a moot point because I fail to see what advantages 3/4AF would offer over Li-Ion 18650 or 18500 that I am using now.

I can use either 18500 or 123s. Flexibility. In my 3xAA FM with M30, I have the flexibility of using any AA based cell - L91, Alks, Carbon Zinc, NiMH, et cetera.

A 3/4AF cell would need an 18mm body but I could only use these cells in it and nothing else. No advantages. Just disadvantages. 2x3/4AF would not exceed 2x18650 in any way.

 

[Sgt. LED]

Name the Mah of 18650
Name the Mah of 4/3 AF

Cell for cell who has more Mah. You can not see the advantage? You have an 18mm body already. They will not fuze permanantly to your 18mm tubes. Just open the bezel and tip them out if you want to run Li-ions again. Plus you are the only one in this thread talking about the M30. You already run the best set-up's for the M30!!!!

Read the thread title.........M60LL

 

[GreyShark]

Somewhere just past 55 hours the output fell to around the level of a match or birthday candle but it's still running after 64 hours. The throw is about ten feet. You can still read by it, identify objects on a shelf or keep from tripping on things in the dark. While the beam has gotten very weak it could still come in handy if you had no other light source. Working from memory I'd guess that it's roughly equivalent to a Mag Solitaire incan or other similar low output keychain light. I think it has a pretty good shot at making it to 72 hours.

 

[gswitter]

Good "feature" find. :twothumbs

And, I think I have an Elektro Lumens MT-1 and a spare Mag 2D collecting dust...

 

[Petersen]

With no intention of stealing the tread..

I'd just like to add,(after reading this) I tried out how my LF D26 would perform in a G3 with 2xAA's ..(and some paper roll)
I would estimate the output to be in the area of 20 lumens (compared to L1,L2 NT120) but it's really hard to estimate...

 

[GreyShark]

I do plan on testing a couple other drop ins later for comparison purposes.

Well it has now officially been 72 hours and the M60LL is still put out as much light as it was in my last update. It's not a lot but it's enough to be useful. Now that it's dark out it's a bit easier to appreciate what the light is still capable of even if that's only at short ranges or indoors. In fact I'm going to have to adjust the throw upwards. In full darkness the useful throw is more like 20 feet feet. Though not a blinding beam by any stretch of the imagination there's enough there to accurately identify items on a shelf from 20 feet away.

 

[ElectronGuru]

I've read a bunch of M60 vs M30 threads, with the goal (like the OP) of max runtime with diminished output. In all cases, the best strategy seems to be using fewer/weaker cells to "force" the regulation to turn off sooner. Seems to me we are fighting the regulator's design. Once upon a time, all flashlights got dim as the battery got weaker. Voltage goes down, output goes down. Then along came regulation, pull more and more energy out of a cell as it is less and less capable of providing it. Result: consistent output and less runtime.

What if we take out the regulation or change its set point higher? Stop playing games with fewer/weaker cells, cram in a much power as possible, so we pull less and less energy out of cells with more and more energy. We've been pushing the power envelope to staggering levels to get staggering output. What if we turn back the clock a bit to get staggering runtime? How about an M60 running off two 18650's that turns off regulation at 6 or 7 volts instead of 3.8? Something like an hour at peak output, then days and days of "emergency mode."

 

[GreyShark]

That is an interesting concept.

Personally I'd like to see a drop in with maybe 25 or 30 lumens but an extremely long regulated runtime. It seems the closest you can get is some of the variable output modules but the examples I've seen are of dubious build quality which kind of makes me hesitant to want to rely on them in an emergency. I don't see regulation as the enemy but it does seem that the low level has increased along with the high level and it would be good to have some real low level drop ins for special applications.

But again, the point here wasn't really just to drop the M60LL into direct drive. I'm more particularly interested in the ability to use a wide variety of power sources, with AA's being common pretty much anywhere in the world and therefore particularly interesting. What I have liked about the M60LL is its relative brightness compared to other under-driven drop ins yet it can still safely run on two Li-Ion rechargeables or 3 CR123 primaries unlike an M30.

You can do tricks with the M30, too. Since it can handle up to 5.5v volts it should be fine on two primaries. If you have a 6P it can run on one 17670 or 2x CR123. Then if you keep an A19 with you 2x AA's could be used when needed. This would be an equally valid alternative "omnivore" configuration. It would yield a higher high on both AA's and CR123 than the M60LL but there would be two points to watch. One is that the system breaks down without the the A19 and it would have to be removed and replaced depending on which power source you were trying to scavenge so it introduces an extra point of failure. The other major point would be the M30 isn't going to be as frugal with the batteries as the M60LL would be, I believe it draws around 8 times the current as the M60LL. This is fine, even good, if you want maximum firepower but it could be a hindrance in a disaster/survival situation. While the M30 will start higher than the M60LL on 2x AA the M30 will probably see the voltage drop faster and become dim sooner than the M60LL. Also I get the impression that two 17500's will result in a longer runtime than one 17670 which would tend to exacerbate the runtime issue with the comparatively power hungry M30. This is a classic case of the candle that burns twice as bright only burns half as long.

So essentially there are two potential omnivore hosts. One being the single piece bodied 3 cell light such as a 9P or C3 Centurion. The other is a 2 cell body, such as a 6P or C2, with an A19. I own both types of hosts and they each have their charms.

 

[ElectronGuru]

I have a 6P and 9P as well, what I'm thinking about today is 2 cell plus 2 cell extender, pushing say an m60LF. It would handle 1 or 2 18650's or 2 or 4 cr123's. But without deregulation kicking in sooner, runtime would be hours not days. I like the idea of 2AA's in a pinch so maybe two singles instead of one double extender.

 

[GreyShark]

79 hours so far. It's still at the same level of output.

 

[GreyShark]

By 84 hours the output had dropped again to a little over half of what it was. It was still running at this level 4 hours later but I have decided to conclude this test for now.

 

[thermal guy]

I have done several run test with my M60LL but never with AA so i figured i give it a shot with my three AA tube.First test was with lithium energizers"91" after about 20 hours the output was next to nothing.When i checked the cells two were at 1.3 the third was completely dead.I tested again and same thing two were OK one was dead.I then tried three Duracell precharged same results.

Now i am using just regular alkaline Duracell's and after 15 hours it is still as bright as when i first started the test. Why the heck are the alkaline performing better:thinking:

 

[gswitter]

My guess...

The voltage of the lithium cells will probably not sag enough under load for the M60LL to fall out of regulation. Current draw will be relatively high (not sure how high, but I assume it will be greater than 170mA draw spec'ed for 6V) throughout the run.

The voltage of the NiMH cells should sag lower than the lithiums, but will probably still be at or just below the minimum to remain in regulation. Regardless, current draw will still be high throughout the run.

The voltage of the alkaline cells will sag much lower, and the M60LL will definitely fall out of regulation quickly. As the voltage continues to fall, the current draw also falls, until a point where the cells can provide a consistent (relatively - it's still slowly declining) level of current - probably under 100mA. The alkalines have no problem providing that much current, and you get the long runtimes you and others have seen.

My question...

When the M60LL (or any of the M60* drop-ins) drops out of regulation, does the current draw initially increase? Or, is the draw always limited to no more than the draw at the minimum voltage required for regulated output?

 

[rigormootis]

I have done several run test with my M60LL but never with AA so i figured i give it a shot with my three AA tube.

Could you tell me where you found your "three AA tube"?
Thanks!