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Sold/Expired Feeler: PhD-M6 (programmable hotwire driver for the SF-M6)

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wquiles

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Will,

I do have to commend you. Your sig line says it well about the attention to details. I appreciate that you are taking your time to tweak this product, get second, third, and fourth opinions on how well it operates, continue to incorporate customer feedback, etc. You impress me as someone that does not want to associate his name with something unless it is excellence. I look forward to putting this final version through the paces again, and I just know I will be very pleased. :thumbsup:

Thank you, that was very nice of you. Although I came up with the initial idea for this project (fall of 2008!), it has been a team effort, not only Eric's awesome custom battery carrier and his great contributions to the project, but also help/feedback from many in the forums, including Alan, Jimmy, and George - my thanks to them for helping me make my initial idea a reality :bow:
 

DM51

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The PhD-M6 threads need to be put in the M-6 compendium in threads of interest incandescent.
I agree 100%. I should have thought of this before - I'll add this one there now.

This is one of the best ever projects by the most talented people on CPF, and now with Leukos and LuxLuthor joining in to do the user trials, two of the most experienced and astute analysers and testers. It doesn't get any better than this.
 

LuxLuthor

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Sure, here the latest. Please consider it work in progress - I am sure it will get tweaked/improved as time goes on:
PhD-M6_Instructions_v5.pdf

That was quick!

DM51, thanks for your confidence. I'm gonna do my best to stress it and look for weak points, or things that might still be confusing or wear out easily.

Will, as we discussed in revising the instructions, just so everyone knows ahead of time, what actually happens if somone inserts the batteries the wrong way? Does a component fail IMMEDIATELY when one cell is inserted wrong way? Two cells? Or does it require all 3 cells the wrong way? If the failure is not immediate, does it require bulb and power on to cause it? I see this as perhaps the most likely thing to screw up. Which among us has NEVER made this mistake?

Depending on the consequences, do you have a way to tell if someone made this mistake (a specific part fails) to avoid you having to fix their obvious error? Do you know what would be involved in fixing it, and cost including part, time, and shipping?

This will help impress upon everyone why they must be extra careful, and what it will cost them if they are not. I also wonder about adding paint to Positive end slots or something.
 

wquiles

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Will, as we discussed in revising the instructions, just so everyone knows ahead of time, what actually happens if somone inserts the batteries the wrong way? Does a component fail IMMEDIATELY when one cell is inserted wrong way? Two cells? Or does it require all 3 cells the wrong way? If the failure is not immediate, does it require bulb and power on to cause it? I see this as perhaps the most likely thing to screw up. Which among us has NEVER made this mistake?

Depending on the consequences, do you have a way to tell if someone made this mistake (a specific part fails) to avoid you having to fix their obvious error? Do you know what would be involved in fixing it, and cost including part, time, and shipping?

This will help impress upon everyone why they must be extra careful, and what it will cost them if they are not. I also wonder about adding paint to Positive end slots or something.

Good question :thumbsup:

If you note on the pictures I posted above with those 9 boards:
DSCF2986.JPG



... you will see that besides the 3 production boards with the new switch, I did build two boards with the old (recessed actuator) switch - I built those two boards to used them in "destructive testing". I will basically finish the assembly, programming, calibration, etc., on these two, and then do my best to try to break/damage them on purpose, which will of course include all forms/combinations of reverse battery usage. I think I might even have some old, unprotected cells that I might be able to try as well.

Now, in theory, the Micrel 5.0 volts regulator that I am using "should" protect against reverse polarity (up to about 20 volts or so), but I have not tested that yet, which is why I am warning folks to observe the battery polarity markings that Eric incorporates on his custom battery carrier. That is one of my project goals for this week, while those two packs are on their way to you and leukos. I will report on my findings later this week.

Will
 
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mdocod

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Hello everyone!

Will wanted me to share some of my observations from testing related to runtime, moon mode, and how they are effected by cell temperature and condition. I'm also throwing in some other considerations about cell temps and safety along with this:

I've run many different bulbs (64250, HO-M3T, EO-M3T, N1, MN16, MN20, MN21, HO-M6R, IMR-M6), under many different conditions. Sometimes in continuous runs, sometimes broken up into shorter runs spread apart by all sorts of possible resting periods, sometimes right after the cells come off the charger, and sometimes after they have rested for a day or more. I'm starting to get a feel for some of the behaviors of the regulation and wanted to share a bit about those behaviors and why they exist.

Under normal circumstances, a direct drive lithium-ion powered incandecent will suffer a reduced output and runtime when cells are colder. Since the output drops, so does the load on the cells, so the runtime isn't effected as bad as it could have been. Colder cells = lower voltage output = lower load.

In our case, since we are regulating output, when the cells are colder, the regulator cranks up to a more aggressive duty cycle to offset the deeper voltage sag, which puts a heavier strain on the colder cells. With no sacrifice in output, all of the sacrifice must come in the form of runtime. What would normally be a loss of both some runtime and some output all combines to equal just a larger loss of runtime instead. The result is that swings in actual runtime can vary more dramatically than one would be accustomed to in a direct drive light.

The variations in possible temperature and cell conditions impact the behavior of moon mode as well. The point at which moon mode "kicks in" and how long it runs for is related to these variables. Since we can not control these variables, we can not control how long moon mode will last or exactly where it kicks in on a particular bulb. Will and I have spent hours on the phone discussing ways to optimize the low-battery warning system (moon mode). In fact, the default target voltage values that the pack uses to decide when to initiate moon mode have been optimized for each voltage setting based on the most likely bulbs to be used at those settings. Even with all of that effort and customization, and the huge re-working of the program required to make this happen (Thank Will for that!), there are still going to be variations in behavior that are beyond our control.

The exact changes in runtime depend heavily on the load involved. Lower power bulbs will usually experience less impact to their "normal" estimated runtime by percentage when subjected to temperature changes.

With that in mind, on the other end of the spectrum, runtime with the MN21 is the most heavily impacted by variations in cell temperature. Unfortunately, until the next generation of higher performance 17670s comes along, the MN21 will likely prove not to be a practical choice when cold conditions are expected. Room temperature or better cells are really required to get a decent run from this bulb. Then again, if you are using an M6 outside in the winter, it's most likely stored in a warm place in-between uses, considering the typical applications for the MN21 bulb.

When running high power bulbs, like the MN21, the cells will generate their own heat (actually, this occurs with all loads, but the high power bulbs cause much more dramatic heat build up in the cells). This can be used as a benefit, but is also a safety issue if taken too far. When a freshly charged set of cells starting from a cool temperature are used to drive the MN21 in a somewhat continuous fashion, say, 5 minutes straight, the cell temps will rise to a level that can help support another couple subsequent runs if those runs are performed before the cells cool off completely. However, there is a delicate balance here, because the MN21 can actually over-heat the cells if used continuously for too long. My recomendation would be to avoid running this bulb for more than 5 minutes at a time whenever possible. Resting periods between runs needed to cool off cells will vary depending on the ambient temps and such. I've found that a continuous run can be performed without over-heating the cells if the light is periodically run under cold water, but this was only done for testing purposes and is probably not ideal or practical.

The heat issues with the cells driving the MN21 is not really unlike the behavior of the MN21 when powered by CR123s. The exact same limitation comes into play with cells over-heating. CR123s are just as dangerous if not more dangerous than the Lithium Cobalt cells used in the PhD-M6. If you are accustomed to the limitations there, and use the M6 in a responsible fashion when driving the MN21, then I wouldn't expect to see any significant problems. Be vigilant and replace those rechargeable cells more often than normal if they are used to drive the MN21.

Eric
 

BSBG

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I agree 100%. I should have thought of this before - I'll add this one there now.

This is one of the best ever projects by the most talented people on CPF, and now with Leukos and LuxLuthor joining in to do the user trials, two of the most experienced and astute analysers and testers. It doesn't get any better than this.

I will add it to the Compendium :party:.

Excellent project,excellent posts and progress reports. Looking forward to mine!
 

leukos

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....Unfortunately, until the next generation of higher performance 17670s comes along, the MN21 will likely prove not to be a practical choice when cold conditions are expected.....My recomendation would be to avoid running this bulb for more than 5 minutes at a time whenever possible....

Eric

Hopefully the 17670 sized IMR becomes available sooner rather than later. Better than that, I hope we have li-ions with 10x the capacity sooner than later. Regulated products like this battery pack will have new meaning whenever the next generation of li-ions become available. But for now, I'm happy to play within the limits. Thanks for all your work on this Eric.
 

wquiles

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Thanks much Eric :thumbsup:

Every product has limitations, and for the PhD-M6 the main challenge has been how to get the most/best out of the existing 17670 cells available, and how to make it work well with at least 10-12 different bulbs. Hopefully users of the PhD-M6 pack will find it easy to use and useful - I still get a grin out of seeing the mighty MN21 running in regulation :naughty:
 

wquiles

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I have finalized pricing for the completed PhD-M6 pack, and when I open the formal sales thread, this is the pricing that will be used:

- Regular price for CPF members: $195
- Regular price for non-CPF members: $245

- Custom programming values: $20 at the initial time of sale. Charge will be $40 (plus shipping) if I have to reprogram a pack already sold.

- Forum member is defined as being a member of the forum before the feeler thread started (June 29, 2010).

However, in order to do say thanks to the folks who have contributed so much to this feeler thread and expressed their interest to buy one, I will be offering the PhD-M6 pack at the special introductory price of $145, for those 38 forum members that expressed their interest in the feeler thread (42 packs max as of the end of July). As I mentioned earlier, that was a non-committal list, so those 38 forum members don't have to buy a pack, but if they do want one, those forum members can buy it at the special introductory price.

Prices don't include shipping, insurance, nor tracking, and you need to provide your own 3x protected 17670 cells/charger. I will clarify shipping options on the sale thread, but I am expecting to use USPS Priority Shipping Small Flat Rate box which will be $5 domestic (USA) and $15 for international destinations.

Eric and I have already been ordering parts and building production pieces based on these feeler quantities (and some extra amount), so as soon as we get feedback from LuxLuthor and leukos, and assuming that they determine the pack is ready, I will start the sales thread.

Will
 
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wquiles

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OK folks, some great news regarding my destructive testing with protected LiIon cells - nothing was destructed :party:

I followed George's advice in using the Micrel 5.0 voltage regulator, which is a robust regulator, and which also happens to have protection against reverse battery polarity. So thanks to George's advice, the protection provided by the Micrel regulator is enough for this project, since at least when using protected 17670 cells, after trying all combinations of 1, 2, or 3 cells backwards:
- the regulator was never damaged, and the regulator continued to work properly once the cells were installed correctly
- the voltage on a bulb was mostly zero with all combinations, except one, where there was about 3 volts across the bulb - which is certainly not enough to blow any of the bulbs being planned for use with the PhD-M6 pack.
- none of the protected cells was damaged after all of these tests

So basically:
=> The regulator worked "only" when all 3 cells were inserted with the correct polarity, and it seems you can't harm the driver/regulator by installing protected cells backwards :twothumbs

So it looks like I can "relax" a little bit the warnings about reverse battery polarity protection, but certainly only when using protected LiIon cells(!).

I have not yet measured/try unprotected cells (which are not approved for this pack anyway!), but if I can find them and I can find a way to test them safely, I will report on that later.

So in summary: To ensure utmost safety to you, your lights, and the PhD-M6 pack, only use PROTECTED CELLS with the PhD-M6 pack - please be safe ;)

Will
 

wquiles

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LuxLuthor/leukos - thanks much for the feedback on the production packs. It is great to hear that you guys feel the pack is ready for "prime time", with some clarifications/improvements in the documentation.

I have asked our moderator (DM51 - David), to close this thread, and move these last few posts with feedback/suggestions to a new thread in the Incandescent Flashlights forum, so that we can keep this very good dialog on suggestions/improvements going outside of the B/S/T forum, and so that we can start the formal sales thread.

Once the posts are moved to the new thread, Eric and I will address all of these good points/suggestions :D

Will
 
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