Ugh, I dont know... Potholes, especially with standing water, are probably harder to see?Which is actually a good thing because that means more contrast between the road and road markings, as well as anything on the road.
Ugh, I dont know... Potholes, especially with standing water, are probably harder to see?Which is actually a good thing because that means more contrast between the road and road markings, as well as anything on the road.
Which doesn't line up with the chart you "found" on your hard drive. The paper also does not quantify seeing ability or detection distances only using the phrase "apparent brightness". But appearent brightness is not detecting moving objects.Well, I can't find it. There are related papers though:
It's called lumen effective multiplier.
Why don't YOU search for it, and you link it for us?Just search for lumen effectiveness multiplier.
Resource please, and how it's relevant to the discussion at hand.Lumen effective multiplier is simply calculating the eye's response in the mesopic region to a given spectrum, as opposed to in the photopic region where it's usually done.
The UMTRI study proves you wrong, as far as car headlights go.I'm simply saying that the lower CCT will need to have a higher intensity to give the same visual response/reaction time as a higher CCT source.
Time for my own argumentum ad nasuim. Do you read? The UMTRI study...A full study would need to be done. That's obviously way beyond my scope (or yours).
No evidence was observed that target detection is
enhanced with blue headlamps for either peripherally viewed or centrally viewed targets.
As a cyclist, I know all about seeing potholes. Under HPS, even the deep ones looked flat until I was almost on top of them. The 4300K LEDs let me see them well in advance. 3000K LEDs are somewhat in between HPS and 4300K LEDs. Standing water in potholes isn't a big issue. I'll see something reflecting off it long before I get near the pothole. In fact, I see water on the roadway surface great with 4300K LEDs. I barely saw it, or not at all, with the old HPS lights.Ugh, I dont know... Potholes, especially with standing water, are probably harder to see?
Research please. I can see you are very opinionated.Which is actually a good thing because that means more contrast between the road and road markings, as well as anything on the road.
So you're basing all your argument over one study done over 20 years ago? I've read lots of other studies which came to different conclusions, like these:Time for my own argumentum ad nasuim. Do you read? The UMTRI study...
This doesn't require a research paper. Look up the definition of contrast. This was in response to "I also find that bluer light gets absorbed more by fresh black asphalt vs yellow halogen light." If more blue light is absorbed by the asphalt you get a darker background, hence more contrast between the road and anything on it. Just applying the definition of contrast.Research please. I can see you are very opinionated.
As a cyclist, I know all about seeing potholes. Under HPS, even the deep ones looked flat until I was almost on top of them. The 4300K LEDs let me see them well in advance. 3000K LEDs are somewhat in between HPS and 4300K LEDs. Standing water in potholes isn't a big issue. I'll see something reflecting off it long before I get near the pothole. In fact, I see water on the roadway surface great with 4300K LEDs. I barely saw it, or not at all, with the old HPS lights.
Why has the automotive market moved en masse to ~5000K if lower CCT is better? Wouldn't they face lots of lawsuits if they moved to a product which was less safe?
This doesn't require a research paper. Look up the definition of contrast. This was in response to "I also find that bluer light gets absorbed more by fresh black asphalt vs yellow halogen light." If more blue light is absorbed by the asphalt you get a darker background, hence more contrast between the road and anything on it. Just applying the definition of contrast.
What you're looking at is very relevant to what type of light is best. For things which tend to be heavy in warmer colors, obviously lower CCT lights will improve contrast. For things which are mostly cool or neutral, higher CCT wins.
The thing is HID/LED often have very different beam patterns, making a true A/B comparison impossible. It could be that the halogen beam pattern reflects back more of what you want to see, and less of what you don't.HPS lights are not a good comparison, they are generally terrible, make all the colors look the same, cast weird shadows, and aren't as bright as LEDs. They were providing minimal illumination.
I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I drive a variety of cars and motorcycles, and I notice than on very dark asphalt halogen headlights seem to be more effective than HID/LED.
Your studies aren't about driving. The only car headlight related study that promoted the use of blue-enriched white light was one done by Sylvania that showed a near insiginificant improvment in seeing ability in the out of focus periphery.
This study done by Nancy Clanton showed the highest CCT LED street lights performing nearly the worst in target detection tests. The visibility tests involved taking people as passengers in a moving car and having them visually identify objects on the road surface. The test speed was 30mph. The 4500K LED performed nearly the worst. The 3500K LED in Test sites 4 & 5 and the 3000K induction at test site 1 performed the best. This study is much more immediately relevant to driving then children sitting in a classroom, and this study is more recent to. It also tests newer lighting technologies out in actual streets. The tested seeing distances, at only 18 inches, of your studies isn't reflective of the seeing distances of driving either.
Those ultra high CCT retrofits are awful things which IMO gave a bad name to HIDs.A lot of it has to do with marketing. Remember in 2000s when HIDs were all the craze, all factory HID systems were 4100k, while a bunch of cheap HID retrofits were 5000K, 6000K, even up to 12,000K in extreme cases.
Believe me, they exist, just maybe not as common in the flashlight world. I can get mid-power LEDs in any color temperature I want from 2200K to 6500K with CRIs of 90 or better. CRI 95 is starting to become semi-common now.Also, when bright white LEDs first appeared on the market and were all the rage, they were all cool white. It took several years for warm white LEDs to appear, and there are very limited choices still when it comes to neutral/natural white LEDs at 4100K.
In which case sometimes you won't see that object regardless of light source.Correct, unless it's a dark object on the dark asphalt.
Yes, but it seems the OP is fixated on high CCT lights are evil incarnate, regardless of how they're applied. In cities with their typical cooler/neutral pallet higher CCT streetlighting seems to work better. Out in the country where you might have lots of organic matter maybe 3500K or less might offer a slight advantage. One interesting idea I just thought of might be adjustable CCT headlights. You would need a computer to calculate contrast of a scene, and continually adjust the headlights to maximize that.But this really sums up the whole thread. We're going back and forth over mundane color temperature here, while the color of road surface and the color of objects on the road plays a lot bigger role.
With the research I linked above, higher color temperature lights do not provide any significant improvement in real world driving conditions. However, they do increase glare.
Not relevant to the discussion. High CCT LEDs may have their use cases, but headlights and street lights aren't those.OP is fixated on high CCT lights are evil incarnate, regardless of how they're applied.
Research please.In cities with their typical cooler/neutral pallet higher CCT streetlighting seems to work better.
No, the link I provided included a poll with public input. Most of the public preferred 2200K over the cooler CCT options. You have your opinion, but that did not line up with Pepperill's.One thing I'm puzzled over though is the OP's link to a city that put in LEDs which are virtually indistinguishable from HPS. Almost to a person, everyone will agree HPS is just awful. Why even try to emulate it?
It has been well documented by the AMA that high color temperature LED street lights worsen glare particularly for older drivers.
Those ultra high CCT retrofits are awful things which IMO gave a bad name to HIDs.
Believe me, they exist, just maybe not as common in the flashlight world. I can get mid-power LEDs in any color temperature I want from 2200K to 6500K with CRIs of 90 or better. CRI 95 is starting to become semi-common now.
I also find that bluer light gets absorbed more by fresh black asphalt vs yellow halogen light.
Which is pretty much the same thing I've been saying. The purpose of streetlights and head lights is safety. It's not up to an opinion poll. Sure, there are certainly some valid complaints like unnecessary light trespass, or higher intensity than needed for safety. Those are addressed with proper fixture design. But CCT isn't something that should be put to a public poll.What the public prefers is rather meaningless. What prevents injuries is. That they prefer 2200 is really not relevant. Hate to say it, but people often don't know what is good for them.
Those ultra high CCT retrofits are awful things which IMO gave a bad name to HIDs.
Believe me, they exist, just maybe not as common in the flashlight world. I can get mid-power LEDs in any color temperature I want from 2200K to 6500K with CRIs of 90 or better. CRI 95 is starting to become semi-common now.
In which case sometimes you won't see that object regardless of light source.
Yes, but it seems the OP is fixated on high CCT lights are evil incarnate, regardless of how they're applied. In cities with their typical cooler/neutral pallet higher CCT streetlighting seems to work better. Out in the country where you might have lots of organic matter maybe 3500K or less might offer a slight advantage. One interesting idea I just thought of might be adjustable CCT headlights. You would need a computer to calculate contrast of a scene, and continually adjust the headlights to maximize that.
One thing I'm puzzled over though is the OP's link to a city that put in LEDs which are virtually indistinguishable from HPS. Almost to a person, everyone will agree HPS is just awful. Why even try to emulate it?
Don't you mean CRI, not CCT? In many urban areas, since the streetlights are also lighting the sidewalks and businesses, high CRI might be desirable as you said. On an open highway in the middle of nowhere, probably not.~4000K LEDs are probably the most common LED made as that is by far the most common commercial indoor followed by 3500K. Asia has mainly 5000K commercial indoor and even residential. Really, you can get any CCT in absolutely any volume you want today. 0 restrictions. w.r.t. CCT, it makes little sense to go above 80CCT (or lower), for street lights, and even if you reduce blue, there is no need to worry about CCT. You are better off converting blue to near green and having a low CCT but high lumens. You do want some blue though. CCT is somewhat meaningful for residential and some urban areas for aesthetics. For many areas is is rather meaningless.