135 to 200 lumens will I see the difference?

[Sarratt]

I have a P1D ce rated at as 135 lumens boost

Will I go wow with 200 lumens ?

Smarter people than I have talked about eyes and the ability to see.

but .... in a practical world ... is 200 lumens that much better than 135 ?

S

 

[Grun]

I did a sample comparison
I wish I sad Wow!, but didn't really for a practical real-world standpoint.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=171770

 

[half-watt]

I have a P1D ce rated at as 135 lumens boost

Will I go wow with 200 lumens ?

Smarter people than I have talked about eyes and the ability to see.

but .... in a practical world ... is 200 lumens that much better than 135 ?

S

depends. most people can notice a 50% increase in brightness, but it's NOT an overwhelming difference to many.


here's my opinion, YMMV.

if you are using the light to illuminate close at hand and moderately distanced objects, then 135 may be as good as 200, depending upon how much fine detail you are trying to recognize.

if you are observing something more distant, more light output is helpful.

all of this is subject to the reflectivity of the objects being viewed of course. some objects, due to color and surface texture seem to absorb light.

for most purposes indoors, 135 is much more than sufficient (you'd need to be in a pretty HUGE indoor space to even need 135, IMO).


also, please keep in mind that what one Mfr. calls 135 lumen output another Mfr. may call 200 lumen output - some think of this as creative marketing with reality/truth being lesser important qualities.

lastly, beam quality is also very important, and i'm not just talkin' spot vs. flood here, though spot vs. flood definitely enters into play, depending upon what, and at what distance, you are intending to illuminate, but i'm also talkin' about rings, donuts, artifacts, interference patterns, etc.


you might get better responses from more knowledgeable, experienced/expert Posters, if you described in more detail your intended uses for your light, as well as which possible lights you are considering to upgrade to from your P1D-CE - i.e. are you considering a different Mfr., or just a Fenix w/Rebel light?

 

[WadeF]

As half-watt said, it's more noticeable for lighting up distance objects. I can see a difference between my 135 lumen rated P1D-CE and my 160 Lumen Rated P3D P4 close up, but more so if I try to light up something a couple hundred feet awy.

I'm sending my P3D P4 to fenixstore for a Q5 upgrade. Some of the people here have done tests and show the P3D with a Q5 putting out around 190 lumens, out the front, where the P3D Rebel was a bit less, around 150-160 lumens or so. So we'll see.

 

[cfromc]

I mainly agree with the last two posters. But, I would say that a difference should be obvious if both lights are rated using the same method. For example, I notice a difference between a Surefire rated at 105 and one rated at 200, however, in most situations the 200 lumens may not be needed, especially indoors. And the closer I am to the object(s) being illuminated, the less I need the extra lumens, sometimes it is a detriment especially if I am trying to read something or if the object reflects a lot of the light back to me. Even so, my main "house" light is a ROP-Hi, but I have to be careful where I point the thing, especially if indoors and if I want to maintain any of my night adapted vision. The ROP really "shines" when I want to check something outside though as it lights everything up for as far as I need to see.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Only at certain distances...

 

[curtis22]

I'm sending my P3D P4 to fenixstore for a Q5 upgrade.

Is that option on their web site?

 

[bspofford]

Some time ago, I bought a Fenix P1D with a reported output of 135 lumens. Maybe Fenix exaggerated a little. More recently, I bought several Ultrafire EMR1 lights with an advertised output of "200 lumens!" The difference in the output was rather dramatic, but not in the direction that I had hoped. The EMR1 is only about a quarter as bright as the P1D, and with the naked eye you can easily see just how dim it is.

 

[half-watt]

Is that option on their web site?

Yes, it was, and might still be.

there were a limited number of Q2 and Q5 LED upgrades available. In addition, if you didn't want to do the mod yourself (i didn't), you could purchase an upgrade service option (i did) and they would do the upgrade for you. wonderful work they did for me on a P3D-Q5. this upgrade could be applied to several Fenix models - either a light you buy from them, or ship your light to them.

can't tell you, as i haven't checked recently, if it's still available today. i know earlier today somewhat similar upgrades were available for the Photon International CR2 light, but i didn't check and see if the upgrades were still being offered for the Fenix.

 

[Nathan]

When my P3D Rebel 100 arrived (Fenix claims 200 max lumens), I immediately compared the output it to my P1D CE (135 lumens), I could easily see the approx. 50% increase in brightness. But the "wow" came mostly from the improvement in beam quality - no rings, almost no artifacts, and a smoother transistion from hotspot to spill.

 

[techwg]

They give you a figure for lumens, and it is ALWAYS wrong. This is my pet hate. 200 lumens is about 150, 160 is about 130 , Cant they just tell us what we are getting? I get really agrivated at this. otherwise i love fenix. just tell us the true lumens.. Jeez

 

[mchlwise]

I compared my P2DCEQ2 rated at 135 lumens to my P3DR100 rated at 200 lumens, and saw a difference but definitely didn't say "Wow!"

(review here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=171535)

There's a lot of factors. Distance vs. close; inside vs. outside; etc.

Another factor is the beam pattern. The P3DR for example has a lot of spill to it. The hotspot was larger than the P2D, so there is obviously more light there, and the spill was larger and brighter so there is obviously more light going there too.

I believe the P3D could very well be putting out close to the rated 200 lumens... but does it look to me like I imagined it would when I heard "200 lumens" and thought about what 135 looks like? No. You don't look at it and say "Wow! That's almost twice as bright!" although it is probably putting out close to twice the light.

:shrug:

 

[WadeF]

They give you a figure for lumens, and it is ALWAYS wrong. This is my pet hate. 200 lumens is about 150, 160 is about 130 , Cant they just tell us what we are getting? I get really agrivated at this. otherwise i love fenix. just tell us the true lumens.. Jeez

They are stating emitter (bulb) lumens, not lumens out the front. So it's not necessarily wrong, just a different rating then you are used to. It's probably a better baseline to know the lumens at the emitter, than having to rely on Fenix to test each light they make for lumens out the front, which may be subjective based on their testing methods, it will vary depending if it's OP or smooth reflector, etc. It's easier and more reliable for them to quote the lumens that manufacturer's state for the particular LED they are using.

When I did bounce tests with the P3D Rebel 100 it appeared to be not far off from my Malkoff drop-in which is rated at 240 lumens. I think the Malkoff is also rated at 240 lumens at the LED, rather than 240 lumens out the front of the lens.

 

[TITAN1833]

They are stating emitter (bulb) lumens, not lumens out the front. So it's not necessarily wrong, just a different rating then you are used to. It's probably a better baseline to know the lumens at the emitter, than having to rely on Fenix to test each light they make for lumens out the front, which may be subjective based on their testing methods, it will vary depending if it's OP or smooth reflector, etc. It's easier and more reliable for them to quote the lumens that manufacturer's state for the particular LED they are using.

When I did bounce tests with the P3D Rebel 100 it appeared to be not far off from my Malkoff drop-in which is rated at 240 lumens. I think the Malkoff is also rated at 240 lumens at the LED, rather than 240 lumens out the front of the lens.

WadeF i think what techwg is saying is. tell us what lumens output emitter or out the front.he does have a point.

 

[FASTCAR]

I would go WOW from a legit 130 to a legit 200 if the beam was the same shape and size

 

[mchlwise]

I would go WOW from a legit 130 to a legit 200 if the beam was the same shape and size

I probably would too... but the beams from the P2D and the P3D aren't the same shape OR size. :shrug:

 

[half-watt]

so, it's clear other's mileage does vary. some are apparently "wowed" by a 50% increase in brightness.

for my part, in a side-by-side comparison, or a repeated sequential comparison, a 33% increase in brightness is typically just barely noticeable to me (YMMV), but i do notice that it's just very slightly brighter - though it may take me 2 or 3 comparisons to be sure that i'm not just imagining it (OCD "at work", so to speak - i like to make sure i'm not just imagining things).

for a 50% increase, i think that's brighter, but not a whole lot so. in other words, from just a single sequential alternation between, let's say, 40lm and 60lm or 135lm and 200lm, i can tell that the 50% increase is brighter, but *NOT* impressively so.

now a 100% increase in brightness, i think, "ah,...now, that's much brighter."


BOTTOM LINE: YMMV.


i do agree with the comments on beam quality though. a good quality beam free of artifacts, interference patterns, etc. is paramount.

 

[WadeF]

WadeF i think what techwg is saying is. tell us what lumens output emitter or out the front.he does have a point.

They ARE telling us what the lumens output is at the emitter. According to the LED manufacturer, at the current they are running to the emitter, it should be 135 lumens, 200 lumens, etc. Comparing a 135 lumen fenix with a smooth reflector to a 200 lumen fenix with an OP reflector would result in a similar intensity hot spot. The hot spot with the OP will be larger, and more of the lumens will be in the spill, which will also be larger. You really need to do a bounce test to see a difference in intensity. Here, I already did one.

P1D-CE TURBO:


P3D Rebel 100:


It may not look twice as bright, but supposedly we're going from 135 lumen to 200 lumens, which isn't double the light, and I think it would take more than 65 more lumens to double the light inside the bounce box I built. There is a noticeable difference though.

 

[TITAN1833]

They ARE telling us what the lumens output is at the emitter. According to the LED manufacturer, at the current they are running to the emitter, it should be 135 lumens, 200 lumens, etc. Comparing a 135 lumen fenix with a smooth reflector to a 200 lumen fenix with an OP reflector would result in a similar intensity hot spot. The hot spot with the OP will be larger, and more of the lumens will be in the spill, which will also be larger. You really need to do a bounce test to see a difference in intensity. Here, I already did one.

P1D-CE TURBO:


P3D Rebel 100:


It may not look twice as bright, but supposedly we're going from 135 lumen to 200 lumens, which isn't double the light, and I think it would take more than 65 more lumens to double the light inside the bounce box I built. There is a noticeable difference though.

WadeF thanks for that information so with a 200 lumens ultrafire R1,thats at the emitter is this correct if so i should expect to get about 150 out front.so the flashlight manufacturer should really give us both figures thats my opinion.

 

[WadeF]

WadeF thanks for that information so with a 200 lumens ultrafire R1,thats at the emitter is this correct if so i should expect to get about 150 out front.so the flashlight manufacturer should really give us both figures thats my opinion.

Sounds like the Ultrafire is running the Rebel at the same power as Fenix. Who knows what the lumens out the front is. That's the problem. How do you test that? Is there a standard? The problem is a lot of these companies, like Fenix, Ultrafire, etc, may not have the resources to provide a "lumens out the front" and if they did, is there a standard way of testing that? Would Fenix's, Ultrafire's, Surefire's, etc, use the same testing standard? It becomes a bit complicating and opens up a larger margin of error and people could really call BS depending on how they arrive at a lumens out the front rating.

I think companies like Fenix, Ultrafire, etc, feel it's safer and more honest to simply quote the manufacturer's lumen rating. So if Fenix, Ultrafire, Surefire, etc, all use a Rebel 100 and drive it at 800mA it should put putting out the exact same light (at the emitter) as all the others. The rest will depend on the reflector, lens, etc. Companies like Surefire seem to take the extra effort to come up with a lumens out the front rating, but look at how much more they charge for their products. Some of that cost is a result of more testing, etc, so they can provide their customers with specs like that. I'd rather Fenix, Ultrafire, etc, keep their prices down than charge more money so they can give us more specs.