G4 pin 35w 6v overdriven to 14.2v >8,000 lumens

[jimjones3630]

New bulb came in today in cooperation with AW and Northern Lights. Hooked up to kiu socket to bench power, Only marking on bulb 6v, 30w.

6v=2.5A
7.13v=3A
8.03v=3.5A
10.7v=4A
12.25v=5A
Held 14.2vbulb for some time at next increase
14.6v=POOF

jim

 

[Daekar]

Whoa... seriously? 14.2V @ a current draw slightly higher than 5A gave you more than 8000 bulb-lumens? Good HEAVENS! Well, where to begin...

What bulb is it?
What did you get it?
How much did it cost?
Do you have any idea what bulb life would be at that drive level?
What is the diameter of the bulb?
How much heat does it give off? - is this a drop-in with a bi-pin adapter kind of thing or will it melt the stock mag switch?

Looks like I need to figure out how to gracefully fit 12 NiMH batts together.... does FM have 12AA holders/hosts available right now? That should fit in a bored 3D mag. Of course, it would be nice to use 12 SubCs for higher capacity, wonder how hard it would be to design a light that would hold that...?

 

[mdocod]

I'm guessing it's a 10,000 hour xenon?

 

[mzzj]

Whoa... seriously? 14.2V @ a current draw slightly higher than 5A gave you more than 8000 bulb-lumens? Good HEAVENS! Well, where to begin...

Yea right, that would be 100lm/w :nana:

 

[jimjones3630]

Exciting isn't it!

The main reason for this somewhat early released hotwire is cost. $3.50 per bulb is alot less than what have paid for some other recent released mods.

14.2v at the pins in kiu socket powered at the bench, measured by Fluke DMM vbulb are all the measurements listed below.

It is a G4 bi-pin halogen with 8.86mm diameter, reasonable priced can afford to work it up and play around.

I got 5A reading from my analog, someone else measured 7A. My analog moto AC, CC bench supply may be out of calibration but measuring the vbulb with Fluke DMM should be fairly accurate. So, the bulb is still in the workup stage.

Considering the recent advances in thermal management, running 9A bulbs in bipin adaptors utilizing said management techs, pedistals are not melting so I'm not planning on using anything else.

Mag switches will be as effective as modded. To run 9A with moded stock switch reducing resistance and at the same time reducing amount of heat produced not only increases vbulb but doesn't melt down the plastic switch.

I like batteries that don't sag much and have flat discharge curves so have switched over most of my mods to run on A123's or Emolis. Because of the flat discharge curve only need a $1 NTC to bring down overhead voltage to meet bulbs specs. Such as 5761 with 2x emoli + NTC 8.2-3vbat and 6.9vbulb.

4x Emoli = 16.8vbat fresh charge, 14.8v nominal will work with NTC and post the results. 4 Emoli fit in 5C M@g form which I like. 4xA123=14.4vbat fresh charge, 13.2v nominal again will fit in 5C.

12 subC's don't know, sounds large. I did 4px5s 18650 can fit in FM elephant with extension. 20 18650 could fit, I stoped somewhat short of 20

So if you want run time, emoli or A123 will give you I think the smallest form factor. 4x emoli fit 5C mod with 26700mah and say 7A is 7000/26700x60=22.8min run. What size would be needed for Ni Mh of same run time? At least 3D, tri maybe quad bore, which is same length as 4C.

Where to get them? Ask AW for the chinese mystery bulb as it has become affectionately know.

happy modding jim

Whoa... seriously? 14.2V @ a current draw slightly higher than 5A gave you more than 8000 bulb-lumens? Good HEAVENS! Well, where to begin...

What bulb is it?
What did you get it?
How much did it cost?
Do you have any idea what bulb life would be at that drive level?
What is the diameter of the bulb?
How much heat does it give off? - is this a drop-in with a bi-pin adapter kind of thing or will it melt the stock mag switch?

Looks like I need to figure out how to gracefully fit 12 NiMH batts together.... does FM have 12AA holders/hosts available right now? That should fit in a bored 3D mag. Of course, it would be nice to use 12 SubCs for higher capacity, wonder how hard it would be to design a light that would hold that...?

 

[mdocod]

Something still seems very hairy here, 8000 lumens from a source of around 80 watts just doesn't happen with incans as far as I am aware, that's LED efficiency territory, 4000 lumens would be believable in some cases.

 

[LuxLuthor]

How, pray tell , did you come up with > 8,000 Lumens? I would think the start of the Destructive Bulb Testing would start bringing reality to how we present and view our bulbs.

 

[jimjones3630]

I conservatively based that on the newest hotrater version. Amazing!


14.40 vbat 14.12vbulb 9.33A 131.8w 8,152b lumen 5,299tlumen

Something still seems very hairy here, 8000 lumens from a source of around 80 watts just doesn't happen with incans as far as I am aware, that's LED efficiency territory, 4000 lumens would be believable in some cases.

 

[jimjones3630]

Lux as I recall you used the same hot rater.

How, pray tell , did you come up with > 8,000 Lumens? I would think the start of the Destructive Bulb Testing would start bringing reality to how we present and view our bulbs.

 

[jimjones3630]

How do you figure 80w from 14.2v 7A? The HR figured 9A so still is a work in progress.

The lattest ver. of the HR, i have heard, uses real life results to adjust the formula. The older version of HR showed 12,000 blumen.

Lux I've actually look at around 11,000 lumens before as I know you have. Why don't you get some of these little mystery bulbs from AW and let us know.

Something still seems very hairy here, 8000 lumens from a source of around 80 watts just doesn't happen with incans as far as I am aware, that's LED efficiency territory, 4000 lumens would be believable in some cases.

 

[LuxLuthor]

JJ, what I'm getting at is the Hotrater is not yet accurate. I'm in conversations with AWR to get it right, but that has not happened yet.

The Osram bulbs for example do not even have a specified amp reading at their default xx Volt xx Watt listing for us to even know the values to put into a spreadsheet until we tested it. Then the measured Lux can begin to allow us to find Hotrater that is more accurate, and at the very least compare bulbs against each other, and what I believe are more reliable claims with WA bulbs.

Promoting a new bulb by some other generic company into a projected lumen rating with no REAL data points is just meaningless speculation. If you look at the measurements I did of the TopBulb generic, it clearly shows that tolerating higher voltage is not translating into higher lumens.

I sent a PM to AW to ask him about this mystery bulb. I would be willing to measure the Lux the same way...and see how it stacks up to our other 6V bulbs...including the Sveltila Tungsram version which I appreciate you sending.

Right now I'm testing the run time of the Osram 64430 at 10V to see when it burns up.

 

[jimjones3630]

Lux, how is it you can speak for AWR? In other threads you use the HR ,don't know what verison and here it's questionable?

JJ, what I'm getting at is the Hotrater is not yet accurate. I'm in conversations with AWR to get it right, but that has not happened yet.

The Osram bulbs for example do not even have a specified amp reading at their default xx Volt xx Watt listing for us to even know the values to put into a spreadsheet until we tested it. Then the measured Lux can begin to allow us to find Hotrater that is more accurate, and at the very least compare bulbs against each other, and what I believe are more reliable claims with WA bulbs.

Promoting a new bulb by some other generic company into a projected lumen rating with no REAL data points is just meaningless speculation. If you look at the measurements I did of the TopBulb generic, it clearly shows that tolerating higher voltage is not translating into higher lumens.

I sent a PM to AW to ask him about this mystery bulb. I would be willing to measure the Lux the same way...and see how it stacks up to our other 6V bulbs...including the Sveltila Tungsram version which I appreciate you sending.

Right now I'm testing the run time of the Osram 64430 at 10V to see when it burns up.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Lux, how is it you can speak for AWR? In other threads you use the HR ,don't know what verison and here it's questionable?

Unbeknownst (? sp) to many there have been at least 4 revisions of the Hotrater betwen AWR and myself. 3 more in the last week....and I just got off the phone with him again before writing this. So I can now say with 100% certainty that I am speaking for him and me.

Here is the reality of the Hotrater as it has always been used up until we had some real testing done this week:

The Hotrater, based upon the WA website URL voltage/amp derived formulas has NEVER been remotely accurate once you went beyond about 20% overdrive...and even that was ONLY with WA designed bulbs.
​

No one had any real basis upon which to discuss various bulb overdrive predictions, and it really became a case of "The Emperor Has No Clothes," if you remember that famous story. Again, the original Hotrater using WA derived formulas with no verification to see if there was actually any correlation with our overdrive claims.

It was never accurate that Osram bulbs could have their formulas derived from a default watt/voltage assumed amp reading. Look at my measured amps for some of the Osram bulbs at their default 6V & 12V categories.

Then the next assumption is if you increase the volts, and supply adequate amps (which many lights and batteries do not provide), that the lumens will increase according to the WA formulas.

Go look at the actual measured Lux of the TopBulb and Osram versions of the 64430. To a large degree, the manufacturers actually determine what output quality at a given voltage a bulb delivers. For that matter, look at the real measured Lux and compare to Hotrater predicted "Bulb Lumens" for any of the 19 bulbs that I have tested so far. For the FIRST TIME we now have evidence of how meaningless the Hotrater has been.

I will freely admit that in the past, like everyone, I was tossing around meaningless Hotrater lumens...because....hey...well everyone else was touting the Hotrater predictions so why not. It was never remotely accurate beyond using it for about 20% overdriving of WA bulbs only. Now we can make a real predictor...and it will have different formulas for different bulb types....and maybe even different formulas for various bulbs by a given manufacturer.

When the tests are done, I will be completely revising my "Most powerful maglite mods" ranking and reported lumens. Suffice it to say that until now, there was no integrity to the reported bulb lumens of hardly any of the incan lights we were overdriving. About the only valid thing that could have been said previously is a given bulb appears brighter than another bulb....never mind trying to find the "sweet spot" optimal setup for a given bulb involving the volts, amps, reflector type, beam shape/hotspot.

 

[Daekar]

Wow Lux, I have to admit I haven't been paying enough attention to your bulb testing thread - I'm going to have to go read the whole thing. I speak for myself and I'm sure others when I say I greatly appreciate all the effort you're going through to test those bulbs and develop formulas! If I felt like I could contribute, I would, but I fear you're in over my little head. :shrug: Looking forward to the test results and hotrater revisions!

 

[jimjones3630]

What is painfully apparent is people have made big $ promoting hotwires that require regulation, expensive out of production bulbs, or a cottage industry to test them.

Show a $3.50 bulb that might require a $1.00 NTC and pages are written about integrity.

That AW released this bulb for testing speak to integrity, as would not make him more money requiring a driver.

 

[LuxLuthor]

I'm sad you are taking this so personally. I am not saying your AW bulb is a bad bulb. I'm saying using the Hotrater, now that data has shown it to be totally meaningless is no longer accurate or useful.

The facts are the facts...and claims of 8,000 lumens are meaningless.

Having choices, and using affordable bulbs is perfectly fine. This is not about disparaging you or AW with his bulb, or others using a NTC. What my comments are about based on testing results over the last week is lets finally bring some objectivity, and not keep making the same meaningless lumen claims that we have all been making for years.

I welcome anyone to test my results with the same platform...which is why I posted images of my setup, and described it publicly. I don't give a rat's fanny which bulb/battery/light someone selects...but I do now know for the first time that there is not a reliable correlation of a bulb's performance based on the WA based Hotrater.

 

[jimjones3630]

Lux,

How ready you are to posts your doubts, laying claiming to some new found intellectual integrity then tell me I am taking this personally. Now you change your tune from you first post. You might want to proof read your posts.

Gave the source of bulb I did so might check it out yourself. AW released this one he could have kept it overseas, not going to make money needing a driver.

I suggest intellectual integrity would include a testing before posting ones doubts in a rather dimissive manner. Repeatable results are what pass for science today.

I'm sad you are taking this so personally. I am not saying your AW bulb is a bad bulb. I'm saying using the Hotrater, now that data has shown it to be totally meaningless is no longer accurate or useful.

The facts are the facts...and claims of 8,000 lumens are meaningless.

Having choices, and using affordable bulbs is perfectly fine. This is not about disparaging you or AW with his bulb, or others using a NTC. What my comments are about based on testing results over the last week is lets finally bring some objectivity, and not keep making the same meaningless lumen claims that we have all been making for years.

I welcome anyone to test my results with the same platform...which is why I posted images of my setup, and described it publicly. I don't give a rat's fanny which bulb/battery/light someone selects...but I do now know for the first time that there is not a reliable correlation of a bulb's performance based on the WA based Hotrater.

 

[PhantomPhoton]

8000 bulb lumens? Off of a 14.2V hotwire? I don't think so.
:thinking:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Good news. AW is sending me four of them to test.

My comments are based on knowing that you determined >8,000L from voltage which I now know is meaningless.

Again, for everyone to begin to understand, the value of a bulb is not based upon how many volts it can be overdriven. I won't say any more in this thread, as I can see there is not an interest in using results of actual tests vs. Hotrater predictions. This is not about someone making money...or having to use a regulated driver. God knows how much I have already spent on testing bulbs.

I'll say a prayer over our differences.

Peace out, my friend.:candle:

 

[jimjones3630]

Would you believe 11,000 off a 20v hotwire?

8000 bulb lumens? Off of a 14.2V hotwire? I don't think so.
:thinking: