Bitter pill for owners of lights with proprietary LiONs?

[brightnorm]

When I got my Boxer 24 HID I appreciated the fact that the battery carrier took 18650's, assuring functioning well into the future because of their replaceability.

When I got my Microfire 3500 HID I appreciated the cleverly designed proprietary LiON battery which was built into the body. But I also realized that in 2+ years the battery would probably be useless because of the short (and usually unmentioned) shelf life of LiONs, regardless of whether they are used or not.

I realized that I could only get that replacement battery if in a few years the company was still in business and if they continued to carry that particular battery.

Fortunately, lights from our most prominent modders and innovators tend to use common batteries like the 18650 and 17670, but powerful commercial lamps, primarily HID, mostly use proprietary batteries

Perhaps I'm just being a worrywart, but I wonder if anyone else has thought about this potential problem.

Brightnorm

 

[quokked]

Don't worry too much about the proprietary battery packs I say,

Most of the battery packs I've seen built of the gagdets over the generations use standard cells just with shrink wrap or a plastic casing over it, think laptop batteries, Cordless phone batteries, RC car batteries,
There's always a way!

 

[karlthev]

Well, I will agree with some reservation. I know that LuxLuthor has been building custom battery packs (of what I undestand to be of the best quality) and I would hazard a guess that he could build a replace for you but, your point is well-taken. It's almost as if a obsolescence timeframe has been built in for (gasp!).....insuring future sales?????


Karl

 

[lctorana]

But I also realized that in 2+ years the battery would probably be useless because of the short (and usually unmentioned) shelf life of LiONs...

THat's funny - I thought the big advantage of LiOns was their LONG shelf life...

 

[karlthev]

That was my understanding as well however I have recently read that "fact" may not always be true.


Karl

 

[Zenster]

I hate to bust some bubbles, but the typical lifespan of a LithiumIon rechargeable battery is just 2 to 3 years whether it's used or not.
I could give a link or two, but do a simple Google on the subject and you'll quickly be convinced.
(The "long shelf life" of LithIons refers to primary cell batteries (NON-rechargeables). It's the rechargeables that have a 2 to 3 year limited total life.

I am also uncomfortable with proprietary LithIon batteries, and whenever possible, I prefer devices that use NimH which have a longer lifespan.

So you really do need to be confident that the company you deal with will be around in a few years. On the other hand, if the product is a good one to start with, AND it was sold in a relatively high volume, it's (hopefully) likely that some aftermarket battery company will make replacements for the originals.

So Brightnorm, you're not a worrywart at all, you're just being realistic.

 

[cchurchi]

This was a major reason why I switched from a PL24 to the Boxer 24W. It gets very heavy usage and I have already killed 6 168A (18650) with it. It's much better to replace 1 18650 out of the 3 in the cartridge then to have to replace the entire battery pack which is just 3 to 6 18650's hard wired together. The only down fall is that the battery cartridge itself can fail. I've only had 1 cartridge fail so far though...

 

[jtr1962]

It's almost as if a obsolescence timeframe has been built in for (gasp!).....insuring future sales?????

That's pretty much what it is in a nutshell. Look at all these laptops that have proprietery batteries and chargers. You would think by now there would be some standardization as there is with desktop power supplies. As a general rule, I don't buy products with proprietary parts if those happen to be parts which are likely to need replacement before the item is obsolete. Now a proprietary NiCd battery might be OK. Those can last decades if treated properly. But lithium-ion need replacing within 3 years tops. In fact, I still shy away from products with lithium-ion batteries for that reason. I won't even look at a digicam unless it uses AAs.

 

[greenLED]

THat's funny - I thought the big advantage of LiOns was their LONG shelf life...

You're confusing primary lithium battery chemistry (non-rechargeable) with lithium-ion (li-ion, rechargeable). Primary lithium batts have a 10 yr shelf life, not so long with li-ion.

 

[Silviron]

Kind of odd, given what people are saying lately around here about the short lifespan of Lithium Ion batteries, yet I have many 'ancient' LiIon batteries that still work fine.

I have several things still operating with some 20500 LiIOns that were already in the surplus channels when I bought them ~six and a half years ago. So they are probably at least 8 years old now.

Oh, most of them will only charge up to a maximum of 4.07 volts now, but they still have enough current potential to melt through 20 gauge wire like it was a 5A fuse, then run a 3W Luxeon light for at least an hour. And I can set them aside for three - four months, and they will still have at least 3.4 V on them.

Of course they ARE Sony batteries made in Japan, not something made in a 'no-name' factory in China of materials and manufacturing techniques that may or may not be of great quality. That could make a difference..

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Brightnorm,

The life span of Li-Ion cells is gradually increasing. Initially, they had a life expectancy of 2 - 3 years. This has increased to 3 - 5 years for the cells manufactured a couple of years ago, to 5 - 7 years for the premium cells of today.

Saft has developed a Li-Ion cell with an expected life of 15 years. It is being used in electric vehicle development and in sattilites, but is not available to the general public today... perhaps in a few years.

To get the most life from your Li-Ion cells and battery packs, charge them to 4.1 volts, and limit their discharge to 30 - 35% before recharging. Saft has suggested 300000 cycles are possible using these limits.

I think I can live with a battery pack that gives me 15 years of shelf life and 300000 cycles...

Tom

 

[Fallingwater]

I never worried much about proprietary packs.
There's no proprietary pack that can't be replaced with a suitable number of non-proprietary cells of the appropriate size.
I've been retrofitting cell phone and RC batteries to electronic gadgets for a while with very good results.

 

[brightnorm]

Tom,

I didn't know that, it's very encouraging. I wish I knew the age and quality of the cells in my Microfire 3500 HID.
Would you say that the "longevity" of Li-ONs is increasing faster than the increase in capacity? I read somewhere that there are capacity increases on the horizon but because of different chemicals and materials there may have to be voltage changes.

Brightnorm

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Brightnorm,

In order to increase shelf life, the manufacturers are adding things to the electrolyte mix to reduce the rate of oxidation. Unfortunately, these additives also take a toll on capacity. It seems to be a bit of a balancing act...

The sweet spot for 18650 Li-Ion cells seems to be in the 2200 - 2400 mAh range. The 2600 mAh cells seem to struggle at 2C current draws. It is interesting to note that the A123 18650 cells are 1100 mAh. They are a different chemistry, but are supposed to be capable of handling 30 amp discharge rates.

It will be interesting to see what developments surface in the near future.

Tom

 

[Alan B]

This doesn't help folks with older batteries and gear, but does show that the life is increasing significantly with Li-Ion cells in the newer designs.

A123Systems Lithium Iron Nano-Phosphate cells are already rated for 10+ year life, and they can handle high 30C discharge rates (can be fully discharged in 2 minutes). They are working on 15+ year life.

Additionally these cells are much safer than previous lithium cells, they do not explode or burst into flame when mistreated.

They do have a lower voltage than normal Li-Ion, so cannot be directly dropped in. Charging regimen is similar but lower voltages are required.

-- Alan B

 

[Fallingwater]

This doesn't help folks with older batteries and gear, but does show that the life is increasing significantly with Li-Ion cells in the newer designs.

A123Systems Lithium Iron Nano-Phosphate cells are already rated for 10+ year life, and they can handle high 30C discharge rates (can be fully discharged in 2 minutes). They are working on 15+ year life.

Additionally these cells are much safer than previous lithium cells, they do not explode or burst into flame when mistreated.

They do have a lower voltage than normal Li-Ion, so cannot be directly dropped in. Charging regimen is similar but lower voltages are required.

-- Alan B

LiFePO4 cells also have a lower overall energy density. Until they can bring it to LiIon levels, I don't see a mass shift toward them.

 

[BentHeadTX]

LiFePO4 cells also have a lower overall energy density. Until they can bring it to LiIon levels, I don't see a mass shift toward them.

The shift to LiFePO4 is for larger battery applications; think cars, electric bikes, UPS etc. I am waiting for PHET's 24V 36 amp hour packs to become available myself. When dealing with electric vehicles, safety, current discharge capacity, recharge speed and life expectancy rule. Would you want to be sitting on top of a 34 KW lithium-ion pack?

My dream laptop is a Panasonic Toughbook CFM-29 with a large LiFePO4 pack. Now that A123 Systems has 18650 cells out, that might become a reality. Maybe in a few months Surefire will bring out a Cree R bin running from one of the A123 cells. One can hope.

 

[elcidkid]

I never worried much about proprietary packs.
There's no proprietary pack that can't be replaced with a suitable number of non-proprietary cells of the appropriate size.
I've been retrofitting cell phone and RC batteries to electronic gadgets for a while with very good results.

I am trying to retrofit an old battery pack that uses 4 Sony 20500 batteries. From all of the information I have been able to find, Sony pulled these batteries because there is a fire hazard with them. These batteries are about 20mm diameter by 50mm length. I think the 18650 is 65mm length so it won't work in my pack. Is there a suitable battery that is 3.6v and at least 1050mAh? I saw a Saft LS-14500, it is a 3.6v AA size (14mm diameter by 50mm length - approximately). Any suggestions about a Sony battery? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The product they will fit into has been off the market for about 6 years and no more battery packs are available.

 

[ltiu]

THat's funny - I thought the big advantage of LiOns was their LONG shelf life...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

... and don't confuse non-rechargeable Primary Lithium batteries (aka Lithium Metal, aka Energizer e2 Lithium, aka CR123A) with rechargeable Li-Ion.

 

[ltiu]

That was my understanding as well however I have recently read that "fact" may not always be true.

... or maybe you folks just getting confused over Lithium Ion versus Lithium Primary batteries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery