300-400 Lumen LED torch...is it possible?

[LEDagent]

Well, after looking at Elektrolumen's Tristar with 3watt LEDs, i was starting to think of the new possibilities of LED torches in the future.

I love the color and beam of my LC100, but i hate how fragil it can be and how long it takes to start up. I love my Tigerlight but...the color of LEDs and HIDs leaves little for me to desire in incandescent lights.

How many 3W or 5W Luxeons would it take to match the luminous (not CP or throw) rating of at least a Tigerlight? I don't know the definate lumen output of the Tigerlight, but some have said anywhere between 200-350 lumens.

I was reading that the 3W luxeons can produce around 70lumens at 1A. Can 5 3W LEDs with Frean optics be driven at a level where each LED is putting out 70 lumens? Can it be done in a relatively portable flashlight? I know that the Inretech Helios uses 5 1W LEDs with NX-05 optics, but can all 5 be regulated/overdriven instead of directly driven?

...Can you wake me up from this dream? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[phyhsuts]

Why should you WANT to to waken up from such a beautiful dream?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
The new Luxeon IIIs are rated at 80 lumens at 1A. Three in a TriStar makes 240 lm. That is in the 200-350 lm range you mention. 80 lm is also their minimum. They will likely have better binings than that in the future. 100 lm is not unreasonable. That is 300 lm for you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ufokillerz]

TRI X3T 5watt luxeons!!

 

[LEDagent]

I'm sorry...i got some information wrong about the Inretech Helios. It uses 3 5W LEDs...not 5 1W LEDs. It's 1:26am...i can't believe some of you in the east coast are still up responding!

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that breaking the ~200 lumen barrier is possible. It will only take some more time to break the ~300 or ~500+ lumen barrier. Geez...it may exceed Xenon/Short Arc/HID lighting! If the 3W Luxeons are basically a more effienct 1W, it took only about a year for them to improve. Can you imagine an improved 5W Luxeon?!

I think i'm going to have a flashaholic equivilant wet dream. hee hee.

 

[ufokillerz]

3 5w luxeons can break 500lumens
x3t's at nominal voltage/current can produce upwards of 250lumens, 3 overdriven ones can do a whole lot more!!!

 

[LEDagent]

[ QUOTE ]
ufokillerz said:
3 5w luxeons can break 500lumens
x3t's at nominal voltage/current can produce upwards of 250lumens, 3 overdriven ones can do a whole lot more!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

....AND I'M SPENT....i need a cigaratte, and i don't even smoke.

 

[Rothrandir]

it's all a matter of how much money you want to spend, and what kind of ridicicioulous runtimes you want.

3 5watters is about the limit or realisticiness i think, and can give you over 600lumens if you have the right bin and drive accordingly.

if you want a "holy {vulgar term for intercourse} that's bright!", you can cram 15 5watters into a huge heatsink in a mag head and run it for several seconds at a time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

 

[Steelwolf]

How hot do the 5W run when driven at nominal power levels?

 

[EMPOWERTORCH]

My single 5W doesn't heat the torch up at all!The problem in increasing the power by adding more Luxeons is battery life, so you'll need a very bulky torch.Of course you could make it rechargeable, using several mobile phone batteries! Such a torch using more conventional cells could run into problems of power due to inter-cell contact resistance. Of course, the way to get round that one is to use "tagged" cells and join them together before installing them in your torch (making sure of course that you can charge the cells in-situ!)I think that chargers are available to enable strings of cells to be recharged as similar arrangements are used in radio-controlled model aeroplanes and cars!

 

[milkyspit]

[ QUOTE ]
Rothrandir said:
it's all a matter of how much money you want to spend, and what kind of ridicicioulous runtimes you want.

3 5watters is about the limit or realisticiness i think, and can give you over 600lumens if you have the right bin and drive accordingly.

if you want a "holy {vulgar term for intercourse} that's bright!", you can cram 15 5watters into a huge heatsink in a mag head and run it for several seconds at a time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Building on what Roth said, with just a touch of the exteme... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you build a light into a small wheelbarrow, you could make a huge panel o' 5-watters like Roth suggests AND get adequate heatsinking for the whole mess, then fill the rest of the wheelbarrow with a bunch of sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries OR a couple deep discharge marine batteries. I'd imagine you could run the thing for several hours... and light your local grocery store's whole parking lot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[BentHeadTX]

I like the idea,
Three X3T 5 watters in a Tri-Star 6D, 12 1/2 D Nicads (14.4V) hitting three power pucks to regulate the light at stock drive levels. Those NiCads can handle the current draw (around 1.3 amps) Soooooo.... who is going to build one first?
OK, all I want is an X5T for my 5D Mag...

 

[CM]

I agree with Roth. I can probably build you a 500 Lumen LED (s) light but you'll probably never use it other than as a show-off piece. You'll have to carry a spare power pack just to power the Peltier cooler, and then you wouldn't want to come in contact with the "hot" side of the Peltier /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CM

 

[milkyspit]

Out of curiosity, I just did some quick calculations as follows...

Peter Gransee had a Surefire E2 independently lab tested in an integrating sphere, and it put out 85 lumens.

FlashlightReviews.com lists the throw of the Surefire E2 as 1500 lux. I assume this is an error, otherwise MR-X is putting out 680 lumens! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif So instead, I'll assume the Streamlight Scorpion is roughly equivalent to the Surefire E2... SL Scorpion has throw listed as 5000 lux.

MR-X (with a single 5-watt X3T emitter) was measured by Hotbeam at throw of 12,000 lux, and the beam pattern is roughly equivalent to the Surefire E2. Doing the math, this suggests MR-X is putting out approximately 204 lumens of light.

This sounds about right.

Conclusion: a single X3T emitter overdriven pretty much as far as I personally would care to overdrive one can generate about 200 lumens. The runtime of such a light on 6xNiMH is about 1 hour. So if you used TWO X3T emitters in a similar arrangement, you could in fact achieve 400 lumens with estimated runtime of about 30 minutes, all in the form factor of a Mag 2D flashlight. Not bad!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

The problem is in getting your hands on those elusive X3T emitters... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

 

[Kurtos]

Like this ?

Another memeber did something like your describing.

 

[AilSnail]

[ QUOTE ]
FlashlightReviews.com lists the throw of the Surefire E2 as 1500 lux. I assume this is an error, otherwise MR-X is putting out 680 lumens!

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

[ QUOTE ]
MR-X (with a single 5-watt X3T emitter) was measured by Hotbeam at throw of 12,000 lux, and the beam pattern is roughly equivalent to the Surefire E2.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mag reflector is generally considered the ultimate thrower for its size. The E2E will thus have more lumens per lux than the SNII.

 

[milkyspit]

AilSnail, I'd never heard that assessment of the Mag reflector before, and what you say about lux vs. lumens on the E2 makes sense to me. Thanks for the info! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My thinking was that the E2 is designed to spread light more than similar incandescents, but on the other hand, every LED-based light I've ever seen, including MR-X, spreads light more broadly than its incandescent equivalent. I therefore made a seat-of-the-pants estimation that the beam patterns for the E2 (unusually broad tactical incandescent beam) and MR-X (unusually tight LED beam, yet still not as tight as most tactical incandescents) would approach one another, making the "conversion" possible.

I figured for these purposes it was an acceptable educated guess, especially given that all I was looking for was a ballpark lumens value for MR-X without sending my light away for very expensive testing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

So what people should NOT conclude from my little musings is that MR-X "officially" puts out 200 lumens! I do think it's a reasonable guess, though, that MR-X falls somewhere in the 150-250 lumens vicinity, a guess supported by A-B testing with my MacCharger running a WA01160 bulb (overdriven to 500 BULB lumens as reported elsewhere, which equates to possibly 350 lumens making their way out the front of the light after accounting for losses behind the reflector, through the less-than-100% transmissive lens, etc.).

Does this make sense to you, Snail? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Please forgive my imprecision! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[flash....]

Thanks for the Link Kurtos..
I need to get me a light meter...
That light is seriously bright, My brightest one period!
But I have no way of really knowing how many lumens it puts out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif ..
Anyone know what light meters cost these days?
Anyhow I think the real challenge is heat... My 6Dx3-5Watt mod get s hot! (direct drive) Too Hot. It is an intermittent use light only.
Now I could back off a bit on current and make it a full use torch light.. Not sure how much dimmer that would make it.
right now I like it for sheer shock factor! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Gotta find that perfect balance of temperature vs. lumens.
But I think what you want to build is definitely possible.

 

[milkyspit]

Flash, that sounds like some torch! Or maybe baseball bat?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif

I believe Elektrolumens uses a half-ohm resistor (0.5 ohms) in the Blaster VI, which uses a 5-watt emitter. He also sells the resistors by themselves; the ones he has seem to be encased in ceramic and can handle higher power dissipation than normal. If memory serves, they cost maybe $1 each? You might want to try buying THREE of them then putting one in series with each 5-watter! That would probably help with the heat problems A LOT, and you'd still get some mega brightness. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[AilSnail]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that the E2 is designed to spread light more than similar incandescents, but on the other hand, every LED-based light I've ever seen, including MR-X, spreads light more broadly than its incandescent equivalent. I therefore made a seat-of-the-pants estimation that the beam patterns for the E2 (unusually broad tactical incandescent beam) and MR-X (unusually tight LED beam, yet still not as tight as most tactical incandescents) would approach one another, making the "conversion" possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think of the size of the light source when i said that the E2E would have more lumens per lux. A smaller filament in the MN03 than the LED source might negate the effect of the larger reflector of the MR-X. I think the numbers you ended up with seems likely, based on the datasheets for the 5w, and hotbeam's lux testing of the MR-X at various amp levels.
What I don't know is the efficiency of the MR-X optical stuff. I believe the surefire lumen ratings are measured with lens and reflector.

Just a moment, I'll make wild calculation...

Ok: the lowest lumen from an Xbin is 192. AFAIK, the MR-X produced 38% more lux at 1.5 amp than at 0.7 (or was that 0.75?) I'll assume ten percent is lost in the reflector and UCL (just a wild guess).

then 192*1.4*0.9=242 lumens.

The max output of an X bin is 250 lumens.

then 250*1.4*0.9=315 lumens.

 

[milkyspit]

AilSnail, your reasoning sounds good to me. Where did you lookup the 5W datasheets? Are they online? I'd appreciate a link!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Since the Vf of an X3T is on the low end for a 5-watter, I'll make the assumption that light output is toward the low end of the X binning. So let's say for the sake of argument, based on your calculations, that MR-X generates about 250 lumens. That's not too shabby!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif