A better world with religion or without?

Sigman

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[ QUOTE ]
tkl said:
would 5000lb daisy cutters qualify as "blessings"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
--------------------
Hey, I like this religion thread...let's "bless" them (the evil regime - not capitalized on purpose) ALOT!!!

Sorry, I'm "stooping" again!
 

Darell

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Wow guys - this is some interesting, deep reading.

While I have no answer for the betterment of the world at large, my own little world would be noticably more enjoyable for me if it lacked *organized* religion. And by that, I mean anything with a name. And has been pointed out before, I do NOT equate religion with spirituality. I consider spirituality to be indispensible for life.

Classy way of starting the topic, Brightnorm. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
 

Tombeis

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[ QUOTE ]
BuddTX said:
brightnorm,

One could probably write volumes on this, but, here is my consice viewpoint.

People would find some sort of spirituality, whether it envolved God or Nature or just Peace with one's self.

Where did we come from?
What happens when we die?
How were we created?
How was the universe created?
How were the laws of the universe were created?
Will the Ultimate EDC flashlight ever be invented?

Overall, Society is better off with religion, even the ones that we choose not to affiliate with. NOT CULTS, but religion.



[/ QUOTE ]

BuddTX:

I love the way you worked flashlights into this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Sigman

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I'll not "really" get into my personal religious beliefs, however..../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif...and I'm not "really" agreeing or disagreeing with anyone...

I do believe that man has a "need" to try and understand things. When he can't, then perhaps it's attributed to "another reason" (call it religion, karma, barometric pressure, whatever...)

Not getting into where religion came from, or whether it is real or not...what I don't like about "organized religion" is that there are "those" that use it to impose guilt, control, and collect $$ for their own furtherance.

Now if it is used for positive reasons, to perhaps get one "on the right track", in control of one's self/environment, positive mental attitude, self-healing, teaching right from wrong, general positive social behavior, just in general "being a happy person" (or whatever)...then it's a positive tool. Label the tool whatever you want to...

And another thing.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif...I hate "labels", I believe that most religions
believe in the same basic things. Each one approaches that belief "differently" though, and then you have A calling B wrong, B calling C wrong, etc...everyone condemning each other. I don't think that's what it's all about...
 

Greta

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Organized religion breeds hypocrisy and intolerance of our fellow man. We are all God's creatures and God don't make junk.
 

Rothrandir

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ok, i haven't read this entire thread because it is extremely long, and i don't have the time to catch up, and because who knows what i might say /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

but in response to sasha's post:
i'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, because "organized religion" is a *very* broad and undefinable term. i will assume you are refering to some form of christianity, since you mentioned god...

no, god doesn't make junk...all of gods creations are perfect. once the devil came around, he perverted and curropted things to make them not what they were intended to be.

i woudln't say organized religion breeds either hypocrisy or intolerance, the curch i attend is tolerant of a various many lifestyles and peoples, even if it doesn' *support* or *agree* with them.
and of course, there are some things that should under no curcumstances be tolerated.

i don't see how organized religion could possibly breed hypocrisy...the bible even specifaclly warns agains this on multiple occasions. and i can't imagine any religion telling you to say one thing but do another...

god also warns to seek the truth for yourself, and not rely upon your paster or a person of higher authority than you. if you blindly follow a faith that you haven't even considered, then, yes, there is a very good likely hood of becomming some sort of wrong, but if you do as the bible (gods inspired word) says, then things should be right.

i am a christian if anyone cares...
 

geepondy

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I agree with Darell's post. I'm too damn cynical to be regligious at least in the organized sense. However I have seen it help a lot of people who "have the faith" get thru personal problems so I never try to talk people out of their beliefs.

Let's face it. Wouldn't we all want to think we have some sort of continuation of spirituality when we die rather then just simply cease to exist?
 

Graham

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Some interesting veiwpoints here.

I am pretty much 'non-religious' in that I don't have any beliefs which fall in line with any commonly practised religion. I believe what I see(I'm also one of the cynical ones..), but I try to keep an open mind (which is a lot more than I can say for many 'religious' people I've met)

I generally don't care what other people believe in, as long as they don't attempt to 'convert' me or anything like that. As long as my personal beliefs in this regard don't interfere with anyone else, I don't see why the beliefs of others should interfere with me.

Graham
 

Greta

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[ QUOTE ]
geepondy said:
However I have seen it help a lot of people who "have the faith" get thru personal problems so I never try to talk people out of their beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! And likewise, I wouldn't appreciate it if they tried to jam their beliefs down my throat... as so many like to try to do... even by going so far as to try to legislate them.
 

Graham

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There is a site on the internet which has a rather amusing (to me) take on religion - Hankism. I won't post a link since I'm sure there may be some who would find it offensive.

However, if you don't mind someone poking fun at religion in an amusing way, a Google search for Hankism will turn it up (along with the original inspiration for it..)

Graham
 

Darell

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Graham and Sasha posted the same point at the same time.

Hey - though I have a little twitch in my left eye, you guys should all be proud of yourselves for managing to discuss such a sensitive topic with such class and understanding.

Tolerance begins at home.

And back on-topic - I sure wish we turly WERE free (of ridicule) to believe what we wanted to believe. But that doesn't really happen. Ironically, I don't really want anybody else believing what I believe. 'Cause it is MINE, all mine. Yet some religions seem to be based upon converting others. Strength in numbers I guess. That has never made much sense to me.

Answering the question of this thread is truly a hard one for me. I've seen some guys turn their lives around for the better after "finding" organized (I've even been known to call it "commercial religion") religion. And yet I've been wronged terribly by those who claim religion to be their guide.
 

FalconFX

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It's always the few bad apples within a religion that gives it a black eye and associates tall tales with it...
 

brightnorm

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I agree with Darell; this has turned into a great thread. I've gotten a lot out of the responses, and not a single flame!

Brightnorm
 

Silviron

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Other than my momentary sidetracking of this thread (for which I apologize, even though I'd do it again), it has been a good thread.

Anyway, as odd as it seems, I don't completely disagree with any of the more serious posts, even though they sometime are diameterically opposing views; everyone has some very valid points.

Personally, I feel that "religion" is a pretty important part of society, even more now than when more people in general were more "churchgoing". Since the rise and inculcation of "godless communism" and (im)moral relativism, society needs SOMETHING that provides some measure of right and wrong that we can aspire to.

One thing that I have seen more and more often in the last 15-20 years is the number of people who say "Good and Evil are only what I say they are." And the people I first heard saying this are now teaching their kids the same egocentric crap that is as bigger threat to a secure and prosperous society than the jihadic terrorists are.

Unfortunately those that distrust organized religion do so for very valid reasons, Historically and recently as much Evil and general stupidity has been done in the name of (some)god as for greed or political domination.

I can't imagine life without religion or some sort of "moral compass". Many, if not most people aren't smart enough or thoughful enough to be anything more than a danger to society without the fear of punishment by "government" or the fear of "going to hell". (Present company excluded, of course)
 

Wolfram

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[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
Perhaps religion codified the intrinsic laws of human interaction.

Brightnorm

[/ QUOTE ]
This may very well be true, even though brave; to reduce the idea of religion as a social system seems too simplistic.
In my world view the choice of faith comes back to a personal
(subjective) relationship with God. Now,as I state this I am reducing God to singular.
As a whole I would agree with others here that the benefits of religion does much more good than harm.
Kudos to brightnorm for broaching this thought-provoking topic!
The simple fact that we can discuss this here; is a testament to the comradery that we enjoy.

There- I touched it with a ten-foot pole!
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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I was born and raised in my formative years as a Catholic.

I no longer agree with much of what they believe. I must believe in God. There must be a heaven for me to look up to from hell.

Anyhow, good and bad, right and wrong, morals... may not be something ingrained in me, but I know right and wrong just fine.

I believe there are some religions (Radical Islam for instance) actually teach war and killing.

Still, I think the world is better for having religion.
 

Sean

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I'd like to go on and on but I'll keep my comment short. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

The short answer is that the world is better with Biblical religion (contemporary monotheism).

A lot of people don't understand religion so they are left with a bad attitude when someone that claims to be religious "wrongs" them or makes outrageous/immoral claims on TV, etc. The truth is that many times even the so called religious people don't know what they really believe. Personally I put faith in Biblical teaching and not what any particular religious group says, since they all have a way of twisting the Bible to meet their traditions. Most people have not even read the Bible. I guess if I were to try and persuade someone to do something it would be read the Bible and look at the historical and archeological facts and make their own decision, instead of being turned off by the "bad apples" of all different religious organizations that are all over the TV and in your neighborhood. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jesus said many times to love one another, to love even your enemies. This goes beyond merely "accepting" others and their faults & sins. No matter what you may dislike about someone Jesus the living God commanded us to love others, period (People that do otherwise and do not repent are not true "Christians"). That kind of attitude is the very "tolerance" that so many seek in an intolerant world. We all have freedom of choice. Fear of God doesn't change that. If you believe in God or not the choice to do good or evil is yours alone.

I disagree with the "fear" factor of religion. Their is no real "fear" in Jesus's teachings. He came as the servant of man. His teachings are very positive (forgiveness of sins & eternal life). If it wasn't good news, no one would be a follower.
 

Empath

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Consider a philosophy:
Believe nothing; verify everything.

The consideration then is how is anything verified. Belief can come from several things, including a strong unconquerable desire for something to be true. If unconquerable, then it becomes a near hopeless battle to overcome. Otherwise belief is a factor of three types of influence.

Type A Influence: Obvious experiential verification. You witness it first hand and the experience leaves no doubt. You believe it's raining because you feel it falling on you. The concrete drive is hard because you fell down and experienced it. Man's experience is full of type A influence.

Type B Influence: Non-experiential "facts" learned from "authoritative" sources, such as schools, trusted texts, parents, teachers, accounts by those we trust, doctrines of one's chosen church, and "sacred writings". It also results from intellectual conclusions and efforts at logical derivations. The bulk of religious beliefs, or at least that which is no longer individual but shared, come from type B Influence.

Type C Influence: An experiential influence granted exclusively or esoterically to only a privileged person. This is an influence that would be type A, in that it's experiential, but unique in that one is privy to the experience personally, or is chosen by an entity to witness or gain privileged knowledge. The interesting thing about type C influence is that the moment one attempts to pass an experience on to another it cannot be passed on as type C, but is then type B.

Much of religious teachings claim a root in type C influence, such as the Jewish beliefs in Abraham's and Moses' unique relationship with God, the Christian teachings from Jesus' disciples accompanied by the guidance of the promised 'comforter'. Regardless, a religion that has become organized to the point that it's shared 'beliefs', it becomes a matter of written systematic statements and rhetoric. It becomes exclusively type B influence.

Now if you apply the beginning philosophy "believe nothing, verify everything", the type B influence is abandoned leaving only type A and type C. Still there is the belief mentioned earlier that is strictly a product of desire. It's the acceptance of a concept because to you it is too beautiful or wonderful to discard. You can try with all your intellectual might, and it won't budge. It has more to do with the heart than it does the intellect. The interesting thing about what is heart instead of mind, is that in the long run the mind looses. Intellect is but a tool for something much deeper, yet sometimes we work only on intellect and forget about working on and conditioning what's much deeper and more motivating.

It's for sure that using such philosophy I can't promote any Type C influence as truth. So, we'll try only for type A. The first thing we've got to investigate is what we are. We are an animal. That's verifiable and indisputable. Under the philosophy there is nothing more assumed. Okay, as an animal, how are we differentiated from all the other animals. A soul? That's not verifiable. What is verifiable is that we have an intellectuality and the ability to exercise it to a certain degree of effectiveness not enjoyed by other animals. That's verifiable and indisputable. And, what does that intellectuality encompass but the intellectual tendency toward drawing conclusion (often without sufficient evidence), and the ability to recognize in others what we have come to recognize within ourselves, including the traits we try hardest to suppress. We rationalize, conclude, and systemize, and being gregarious animals we also share these great and wonderful formulas.... until suddenly we have another fully systematic,rule based, dogmatic religion. The thing to recognize about humans is they have the intellect but not the capacity to use it properly socially. The last few hundred years of the thousands of years of existence has permitted some stumbling around technically and impressive intellectual achievements have been made. Socially and spiritually we've attempted to apply the same intellectual formulas of developing systems, doctrines, rules, laws and theories. There are some common elements or parallels in the physical world and the intangible emotionally charged human psyche. The differences between them though are obscure and hopelessly hidden from the systematic formula seeking tool we call the intellect.

The question, "would the world be better off" cannot be answered for it's a "what if" question of something that simply can't be for the animal or it's characteristics, at least not as far as group dynamics are concerned, and the 'world' definitely operates under group dynamics. Perhaps a better question would be of a personal nature. "Would you be better off?
 
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