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orbital

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Was taking with a friend* yesterday, his company couldn't come to a contract agreement because all the millennials or younger insisted they be making $30 hour.
this is unskilled warehouse work!

You should have heard how pissed he was on the phone.

Way too long of free handouts or simply the ease of getting unemployment checks
..now I'm getting pissed

*he has a specialist position
 

idleprocess

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How do local and/or state government officials go about determining a minimum wage?
Political wrangling aside, the cost of living in a given state, region, zipcode is something an economics major intern can do accounting for the basics of median rent, transportation, food, utilities, insurance, childcare, etc. At which point the politicians can then decide what percentage of this figure the minimum wage should cover.
 
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Political wrangling aside, the cost of living in a given state, region, zipcode is something an economics major intern can do accounting for the basics of median rent, transportation, food, utilities, insurance, childcare, etc. At which point the politicians can then decide what percentage of this figure the minimum wage should cover.
So who gave the politicians the authority to impose such responsibility on small business owners?
 

kaichu dento

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I don't have a problem with the current minimum wage, as it motivates people to work hard to get ahead...which is sorely missing today.
Actually government should keep their nose out of it altogether and let the minimum wage be determined by the marketplace. Pay too little, get no workers; pay enough, no problem finding help; pay a premium wage, get cream of the crop employees.

One of the worst aspects of required minimum wages is that the worst workers end up getting paid far more than they're worth, and I think we've all had our share of working with them.
 
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Actually government should keep their nose out of it altogether and let the minimum wage be determined by the marketplace. Pay too little, get no workers; pay enough, no problem finding help; pay a premium wage, get cream of the crop employees.

One of the worst aspects of required minimum wages is that the worst workers end up getting paid far more than they're worth, and I think we've all had our share of working with them.

Well stated!

Perhaps some that support the minimum wage laws do so because their payscale is directly tied to it.
 
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jtr1962

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Or ya know. Get kids back to work so they can learn some basic job skills. I started when I was 15. I worked at a local grocery and I cleared brush. When I was 16 I started working as a physical therapy technician on weekends while still working at the local grocery. I quit the local grocery and started working evenings at McDonald's while still working my weekends at the hospital and clearing brush and doing weightlifting and football and track. If I managed it so can kids today.
Vast majority of my classmates in HS didn't work. This was late 1970s. They didn't have the time for it, and neither did I. I got up a 6AM, left at about 6:40 to take the subway 1.5 hours to school. Did the same thing in reverse when school let out at 3:20 PM. Got home around 5 PM, had 5 or 6 hours of homework. If I was lucky I got to bed before midnight. Weekends was spent either catching up on reports I lacked the time for during the week, or just catching up on sleep. I'm not Asian but most of my friends were. Our "job" was to do well in school, get into a good college. Most went on to grad school. Anything we might have earned as teenagers was a pittance compared to when we started working for real. Most of these kids parent's wouldn't have let them work even if they wanted to. They were doing backbreaking stuff so their children didn't have to.

Most teenagers who work do it for spending money, because their parents are too broke to give them any. That was more common decades ago. My attitude is I'd rather do one thing and do it well, then do two or three things half-a$$ed. I only went through school once. I'm glad I devoted all my energy to it.

Nowadays I see mostly middle-aged people working the jobs some teenagers used to do way back when. I don't pine for the days of teenagers working. I don't see that it does anything positive for them. It keeps them from their studies. Most spend the money on stupid stuff like designer clothes, the latest gadgets, or cars. They're setting themselves up to be consumers of junk they don't need, living paycheck to paycheck. Doing without stuff you really don't need builds more character in my opinion.
 

idleprocess

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So who gave the politicians the authority to impose such responsibility on small business owners?
Suspect that the authority flows from powered enumerated in foundational documents to legislation creating broad laws and agencies to specific regulation promulgated by agencies - much of which has been tested in the courts over the decades. As for debates over the appropriateness, it wasn't that long ago that working full time - even at what's now considered menial work - meant that you were at the very least not poor.
 

jtr1962

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One of the worst aspects of required minimum wages is that the worst workers end up getting paid far more than they're worth, and I think we've all had our share of working with them.
But nobody is forcing a business to hire those workers. A higher minimum wage gives businesses a better class of people applying for the job. Besides, why the focus on wages? It should be on how much work the person can do. Which would you rather have, a $7/hour employee who turns out 2 widgets per hour, or a $25/hour employee who turns out 15? That's not even much of an exaggeration. In lots of places the best workers put out 5+ times as much work as the worst ones.
 

kaichu dento

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…the best workers put out 5+ times as much work as the worst ones.
Exactly, and as such it should be the same as it is for me, between me and the employer, to determine what they're willing to pay and what I'm willing to accept, based only on my ability to work, and theirs to pay. None of any bureaucrats business, at all.
 

jtr1962

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Exactly, and as such it should be the same as it is for me, between me and the employer, to determine what they're willing to pay and what I'm willing to accept, based only on my ability to work, and theirs to pay. None of any bureaucrats business, at all.
That's actually why I support paying work per unit, as opposed to per hour. No need to negotiate pay. You want to earn more, work faster. Or if the amount of work per day is fixed, you get to go home earlier if you complete it sooner. Either way slackers won't apply because they know they'll earn little or nothing if paid by the piece.

Employers use hours worked as a rough proxy for work done but it rarely is. People vary widely in their productivity.
 

kaichu dento

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I support paying work per unit, as opposed to per hour. No need to negotiate pay…
I support people doing whatever serves both parties involved and not letting others dictate in what manner they have to come to agreement. Many times I prefer to be paid a flat rate, and other times by the hour.

There are no laws that can be passed that will assure fairness, and to the contrary are oftentimes misused to take advantage from one side or the other.
 

bykfixer

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IMG_1506.jpeg
 

jtr1962

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I support people doing whatever serves both parties involved and not letting others dictate in what manner they have to come to agreement. Many times I prefer to be paid a flat rate, and other times by the hour.

There are no laws that can be passed that will assure fairness, and to the contrary are oftentimes misused to take advantage from one side or the other.
I see both sides of the coin. UAW is asking for wages which may well put an end to US auto manufacturing. Revenues set a hard limit on how much you can spend on labor. On the flip side, I also see many business owners feeling they're entitled to workers willing to work at starvation wages. Their revenues often don't even factor into it. They can afford to pay more, often a lot more, but just won't. Yet these same business people will complain they either can't get workers, or the ones they get are useless.

Cost of living factors into many of these calls for higher minimum wages. We're seeing nationally what we saw only on the coasts 30 or 40 years ago. That job I had which paid $7 an hour in 1989? I couldn't even support myself on that. My take-home after taxes and carfare was around $800 a month. That's with having Ramen soup for lunch. Rents were at least $600 back then. I would have been underwater once you added in my student loans payments, never mind food or clothing. And forget saving for retirement. It used to be if you worked even a menial job full-time in the 1950s at least you wouldn't be poor. You could afford food, clothing, a place to live in an OK area, maybe enough for a little entertainment or hobbies. Then by 1990 on the coasts even a somewhat better than menial job wouldn't even cover housing. Now the same thing is happening pretty much nationally.

Only two ways to fix it. Either get wages up, or the costs of a lot of these things down. The same crowd that hates regulation is often against ditching the zoning laws that would allow the free market to begin to fix the housing issue. This is true whether you're talking about big cities or suburbs. We have people that want the neighborhood to stay the same as it was when they moved there in 1947.

Government can't legislate completely "fair" because that definition differs depending upon who you ask. But they can keep things from being grossly biased in favor of certain groups over others. Remember the employer almost always has the superior position at the bargaining table. It's nice to think workers can negotiate equitable terms. In practice most lack the intelligence, bargaining skills, or balls to do that. Only way I got a raise from $7 to $11 an hour at the last job I worked at before becoming self-employed was by threatening to walk, along with another guy, and my immediate supervisor doing the same. In the end the company still won when it decided to lay everyone off. Ironically, my former boss bought the place to run as his own business. He's still in business 33 years later. The parent company which used to own the place has been gone for something like 20 years. Most times though the little guy loses.
 

jtr1962

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Based on your responses I really don't think you do, so let's both save some breath then, as neither one of us is going to change the other one's mind, no matter how many pages you type.
It wouldn't matter much even if we did. As far as I know you're not in any position of power to radically change things. I know I'm not.

Most of the stuff I talked about here bothers me more in the abstract but doesn't affect me personally. I became self-employed for a reason after realizing working for others is usually a bum deal.
 

bigburly912

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Vast majority of my classmates in HS didn't work. This was late 1970s. They didn't have the time for it, and neither did I. I got up a 6AM, left at about 6:40 to take the subway 1.5 hours to school. Did the same thing in reverse when school let out at 3:20 PM. Got home around 5 PM, had 5 or 6 hours of homework. If I was lucky I got to bed before midnight. Weekends was spent either catching up on reports I lacked the time for during the week, or just catching up on sleep. I'm not Asian but most of my friends were. Our "job" was to do well in school, get into a good college. Most went on to grad school. Anything we might have earned as teenagers was a pittance compared to when we started working for real. Most of these kids parent's wouldn't have let them work even if they wanted to. They were doing backbreaking stuff so their children didn't have to.

Most teenagers who work do it for spending money, because their parents are too broke to give them any. That was more common decades ago. My attitude is I'd rather do one thing and do it well, then do two or three things half-a$$ed. I only went through school once. I'm glad I devoted all my energy to it.

Nowadays I see mostly middle-aged people working the jobs some teenagers used to do way back when. I don't pine for the days of teenagers working. I don't see that it does anything positive for them. It keeps them from their studies. Most spend the money on stupid stuff like designer clothes, the latest gadgets, or cars. They're setting themselves up to be consumers of junk they don't need, living paycheck to paycheck. Doing without stuff you really don't need builds more character in my opinion.
Buddy you've got some weird takes on some poop but saying that working doesn't help teenagers might take the cake.

I mean I guess they aren't necessarily odd to you but wow. Interfere with studies??

Am I totally off on this? I literally worked 2 real scheduled jobs and worked on the side all through school and had no problems. I was in Whos Who, fccla, beta club, it really wasn't hard. It was enjoyable.

Buy stuff I didn't need? Brother I bought food for my family.


Edited to add…. I don't even know I'm literally blown away. Craziest crap I've ever read.
 
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LuxLuthor

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Actually government should keep their nose out of it altogether and let the minimum wage be determined by the marketplace. Pay too little, get no workers; pay enough, no problem finding help; pay a premium wage, get cream of the crop employees.

One of the worst aspects of required minimum wages is that the worst workers end up getting paid far more than they're worth, and I think we've all had our share of working with them.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that, but a token $7.25 doesn't seem like a big deal one way or the other. It's not our job to make sure everyone gets ahead. There will always be some people in any society who have meager lives, but the left/liberals think everyone should be coddled and equalized to be on the same level. It's called socialism/communism and it has never worked as unless people get rewarded for their creativity and hard work, you have nations of post office workers.

The USA became a superpower not because of government supports, but rather because of capitalist innovation and making profits. Some rise to the top, and others stay at the bottom.
 

LuxLuthor

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Buddy you've got some weird takes on some poop but saying that working doesn't help teenagers might take the cake.

Now you are seeing the mind of a coastal liberal. They actually believe this nonsense, and vote accordingly. It makes little sense to those of us who want as little as possible from government. I'm sooo happy they are getting more and more illegal immigrants shoved down their throats. Even still the small relative number being sent to NYC for example is NOTHING compared to how many many towns in Texas have had to deal with. There needs to be at least 10 times the amount sent to NYC for starters.
 

bigburly912

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Now you are seeing the mind of a coastal liberal. They actually believe this nonsense, and vote accordingly. It makes little sense to those of us who want as little as possible from government. I'm sooo happy they are getting more and more illegal immigrants shoved down their throats. Even still the small relative number being sent to NYC for example is NOTHING compared to how many many towns in Texas have had to deal with. There needs to be at least 10 times the amount sent to NYC for starters.
I can honestly say I've never in my life heard somebody say that work is detrimental to the growth and development of a young person. Holy wow. I seriously can not believe I read that.

There is in no alternate universe a way I can agree with that statement.
 
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