Sigman
* The Arctic Moderator *
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
A better world with religion or without?
- Thread starter brightnorm
- Start date
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Well, dinosaurs and 4000 year old trees are proof of life way before Mohammed, Jesus, Confucious, etc... But I've come across way too many people who still think dinosaur bones are made up and tree rings are just carvings...
Their argument: The theory of evolution is a faith... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
Their argument: The theory of evolution is a faith... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
Religion gives us many pros and cons. It gives us something to explain the unexplainable. It gives us another thing that we have in common and can relate to other people. It also gives us problems such as over in the Middle East right now. Saddam is one branch of Muslims, there are two or three others in that area. The branch in southern Iraq, the Shiits (pronounced Shi-ite) do not like him that much. I believe that our world is better with religion to answer your question directly.
Flashlightboy
Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2001
- Messages
- 856
The world needs spirituality more than organized religion. My opinion comes from having attended parochial schools from grade school through first year in college.
Spirituality has been very well described in prior posts but some of the discussions haven't raised the following points.
Religion is selling you, as a believer or a potential believer, the possibility of eternal life. Your time on earth and the length of life cannot be known by anyone and organized religion plays heavily on this one certainty.
But it is ironic how the promise of eternal life is used as a weapon to coerce a desired behavior. I'm not picking on Catholics but lets use them as an example. When the California missions were being built, the padres used the local Hispanics or Indians for the labor. The funny thing is that in the Catholic church the priest is asked to pray for the congregant as though the more earnest the priest's prayer, the greater likelihood the prayer will be answered or if the saints are interceding on your behalf the prayers are more likely to be granted. (I simply don't understand why someone needs to pray on another's behalf if you are all praying to the same all-knowing, all-powerful supreme being.)
The padres simply said that unless their semi-forced labor worked for the church, sufficient prayers wouldn't be said on their behalf. I can't imagine this as a pristine example of religion.
Furthermore, religion needs to preach exclusivity for each denomination. All religions, without exception, teach that while other denominations may have the best motives and intentions, unless you are a member of their church, you do not have the full spirit/blessing of God. Back to the Catholics for another moment. You may not participate in communion even if you believe in the Lord just as feverently as the most devote Catholic. This is so even though the wafer, for most christian religions, is supposed to be the symbolic body of Christ. I can't imagine that God looks upon someone's elses wafers with more of a blessing than others and yet, this is exactly what devote believers preach.
Among the many other points, religion and religious wars kill more people than plain ole war. The problems in Northern Ireland are, in part, a continuing example of
religion run amok.
Furthermore, the more fundamental a religion, the less tolerant it is of those who question the tenets of the organization. If you are a believer you have no need to question the beliefs or practices ergo, to do so is to act as a non-believer. However, such questions are healthy for any organization and serve to reaffirm the organization's tenets. Religion doesn't seem to allow such questioning.
There is an ongoing sense of right and wrong in the universe but I'm not sure that absolute positions of Heaven or Hell make the world a better place.
Put me in the without column.
Spirituality has been very well described in prior posts but some of the discussions haven't raised the following points.
Religion is selling you, as a believer or a potential believer, the possibility of eternal life. Your time on earth and the length of life cannot be known by anyone and organized religion plays heavily on this one certainty.
But it is ironic how the promise of eternal life is used as a weapon to coerce a desired behavior. I'm not picking on Catholics but lets use them as an example. When the California missions were being built, the padres used the local Hispanics or Indians for the labor. The funny thing is that in the Catholic church the priest is asked to pray for the congregant as though the more earnest the priest's prayer, the greater likelihood the prayer will be answered or if the saints are interceding on your behalf the prayers are more likely to be granted. (I simply don't understand why someone needs to pray on another's behalf if you are all praying to the same all-knowing, all-powerful supreme being.)
The padres simply said that unless their semi-forced labor worked for the church, sufficient prayers wouldn't be said on their behalf. I can't imagine this as a pristine example of religion.
Furthermore, religion needs to preach exclusivity for each denomination. All religions, without exception, teach that while other denominations may have the best motives and intentions, unless you are a member of their church, you do not have the full spirit/blessing of God. Back to the Catholics for another moment. You may not participate in communion even if you believe in the Lord just as feverently as the most devote Catholic. This is so even though the wafer, for most christian religions, is supposed to be the symbolic body of Christ. I can't imagine that God looks upon someone's elses wafers with more of a blessing than others and yet, this is exactly what devote believers preach.
Among the many other points, religion and religious wars kill more people than plain ole war. The problems in Northern Ireland are, in part, a continuing example of
religion run amok.
Furthermore, the more fundamental a religion, the less tolerant it is of those who question the tenets of the organization. If you are a believer you have no need to question the beliefs or practices ergo, to do so is to act as a non-believer. However, such questions are healthy for any organization and serve to reaffirm the organization's tenets. Religion doesn't seem to allow such questioning.
There is an ongoing sense of right and wrong in the universe but I'm not sure that absolute positions of Heaven or Hell make the world a better place.
Put me in the without column.
Sigman
* The Arctic Moderator *
Jeff - expressed very well! I am truly enjoying this thread. I usually try to avoid "potentially volatile" threads and typically just "pass on through"...but this one has really turned out to be one of the better ones that I've been exposed to.
I'm thinking that it's been my loss by passing up some of those other ones. I'm going to have to start looking a little closer...
Just wanted to say I appreciate the mature dialog and interesting points of view!
I'm thinking that it's been my loss by passing up some of those other ones. I'm going to have to start looking a little closer...
Just wanted to say I appreciate the mature dialog and interesting points of view!
Charles Bradshaw
Flashlight Enthusiast
Thank you, Sasha!!! People generally confuse Religion and Spirituality, thinking the two are the same. They most certainly are NOT the same. Religion is a group thing: worship around a set of beliefs. Spirituality is an Individual thing, where the experience(s) and Attainments are gained by practice of Meditation and/or various forms of Yoga (exercise routines for specific purposes). Even the varied forms of Ritual Magic, including Wicca, result in Attainments for the serious and diligent practitioner.
Once certain Knowledge is gained, you realize that looking at things from the Physical viewpoint (what happens after death), is and Illusion. The Reality is from the Viewpoint of Spirit: Physical Life is a temporary vehicle for learning certain things and balancing some of the Debt incurred from previous Mistakes. Unless, one is here for a Much Higher Purpose (what I call High Destiny).
I am a Melchizedek, in the Order of Melchizedek (what it is called on Earth).
Now, Creationism vs Evolutionism: The fundies of both are wrong, since they are exclusionary of the other. Ever notice how the Creationists are fanatical about 6,000 Earth Years (and that number NEVER changes)?? Who, the heck are They, to tell GOD how long ago Creation happened, and to say that there is no such thing as evolution???
Btw, in Genesis, the Garden of Eden story was Originally one of "Time to leave the nest and grow up," rather than the original sin version, which one of the early Popes change it to.
To the Ancients, the Serpent was symbolic of Wisdom, not Evil: Be as Wise as a Serpent. Wisdom is a result of Spiritual Attainment, and the Ultimate in that, is the full awakening and raising of The Kundalini: The Serpent or Sacred Fire which rises up along the Spine, interwined as Twin Serpents. The Caduceous of Medicine is the Symbol of Kundalini Risen: The Rod is the Spinal Cord.
When this happens to an Individual, it is best described as a Nuke going off in the Mind (oh, brother, aint THAT the truth!) and you have a time of Universal Consciousness. You are now a Spiritual Initiate. In the Ancient Mystery Schools, only Initiates could carry the Staff that symbolized this, for the reason that they had attained that status.
Usually, before that happens, you experience a time of Samadhi: fully conscious on ALL levels of being, at the Same Time. (what fun that is! I spent 3 months in Samadhi, nonstop, 24/7. Awake the entire time, full of energy and NO hunger, thus no need to eat. It felt like I was levitating around the apartment and had to look down to see that I wasn't.)
There are 2 kinds of personal experiences, Subjective and Objective. Subjective is internal, like visions, or say, telepathic communication with Archangel Gabriel. Not something that can be proven scientifically. Objective experiences come from outside yourself, usually from another person, like when a perfect stranger to you, greets you as a Master (it has happened to me, more than once). I even got greeted as the Governor of the Seventh Heaven, in the Eckankar office in Honolulu, last time I lived there. All I did was stop by to pick up a book. Before that, I was tested by a Real Kahuna (they don't announce the fact, but the perceptive can tell). That was a fun conversation: totally incomprehensible to a non-initiate, but totally logical to an Initiate.
My first Spiritual Teacher in this life, told me that my Silent One is Jesus. In Eckankar (means Soul Travel), there is you, your Silent One, and The Sugmad (The All-In-All). a Triunity. In other Spiritual traditions, there is the High Self, which is that part of you, that is not in the Physical: the Real You. I was curious one night, so I asked Archangel Gabriel if one's Silent One and one's High Self are one and the Same. He told me: Yes. Now, look at the beginning of this paragraph and put 2 and 2 together............
If your reaction(s) are anything like mine was: Total SHOCK! I still have an extremely hard time accepting it, and still prefer not to (I was raised Methodist, though am not a Christian). Though, remember that He did not say How He would return, just that he would, and the World conditions at That Time. (I make NO Claim that I am He, merely speaking of my experiences here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
It gets even stranger. When I make a decision in High Matters, Archangel Gabriel addresses me: Thine Will Be Done, on Earth, As It IS in Heaven, True Sugmad!
I had a close Friend check into matters concerning my True Identity, and he confirms what I have experienced. When he checks on things, he has absolutely NO doubts with the resulting information. He and I have had visions of physical things (high-tech and not of Earth, but underground on Earth) that we are supposed to find. Since these are physical, if we do find these, then he and I will accept this as physical proof of the rest of the information. Until then, we treat this with reservations (considering its nature, wouldn't You??).
So, am I:
The Most Evil One??
or
A total Nutcase??
or
........ (I won't say it)??
Once certain Knowledge is gained, you realize that looking at things from the Physical viewpoint (what happens after death), is and Illusion. The Reality is from the Viewpoint of Spirit: Physical Life is a temporary vehicle for learning certain things and balancing some of the Debt incurred from previous Mistakes. Unless, one is here for a Much Higher Purpose (what I call High Destiny).
I am a Melchizedek, in the Order of Melchizedek (what it is called on Earth).
Now, Creationism vs Evolutionism: The fundies of both are wrong, since they are exclusionary of the other. Ever notice how the Creationists are fanatical about 6,000 Earth Years (and that number NEVER changes)?? Who, the heck are They, to tell GOD how long ago Creation happened, and to say that there is no such thing as evolution???
Btw, in Genesis, the Garden of Eden story was Originally one of "Time to leave the nest and grow up," rather than the original sin version, which one of the early Popes change it to.
To the Ancients, the Serpent was symbolic of Wisdom, not Evil: Be as Wise as a Serpent. Wisdom is a result of Spiritual Attainment, and the Ultimate in that, is the full awakening and raising of The Kundalini: The Serpent or Sacred Fire which rises up along the Spine, interwined as Twin Serpents. The Caduceous of Medicine is the Symbol of Kundalini Risen: The Rod is the Spinal Cord.
When this happens to an Individual, it is best described as a Nuke going off in the Mind (oh, brother, aint THAT the truth!) and you have a time of Universal Consciousness. You are now a Spiritual Initiate. In the Ancient Mystery Schools, only Initiates could carry the Staff that symbolized this, for the reason that they had attained that status.
Usually, before that happens, you experience a time of Samadhi: fully conscious on ALL levels of being, at the Same Time. (what fun that is! I spent 3 months in Samadhi, nonstop, 24/7. Awake the entire time, full of energy and NO hunger, thus no need to eat. It felt like I was levitating around the apartment and had to look down to see that I wasn't.)
There are 2 kinds of personal experiences, Subjective and Objective. Subjective is internal, like visions, or say, telepathic communication with Archangel Gabriel. Not something that can be proven scientifically. Objective experiences come from outside yourself, usually from another person, like when a perfect stranger to you, greets you as a Master (it has happened to me, more than once). I even got greeted as the Governor of the Seventh Heaven, in the Eckankar office in Honolulu, last time I lived there. All I did was stop by to pick up a book. Before that, I was tested by a Real Kahuna (they don't announce the fact, but the perceptive can tell). That was a fun conversation: totally incomprehensible to a non-initiate, but totally logical to an Initiate.
My first Spiritual Teacher in this life, told me that my Silent One is Jesus. In Eckankar (means Soul Travel), there is you, your Silent One, and The Sugmad (The All-In-All). a Triunity. In other Spiritual traditions, there is the High Self, which is that part of you, that is not in the Physical: the Real You. I was curious one night, so I asked Archangel Gabriel if one's Silent One and one's High Self are one and the Same. He told me: Yes. Now, look at the beginning of this paragraph and put 2 and 2 together............
If your reaction(s) are anything like mine was: Total SHOCK! I still have an extremely hard time accepting it, and still prefer not to (I was raised Methodist, though am not a Christian). Though, remember that He did not say How He would return, just that he would, and the World conditions at That Time. (I make NO Claim that I am He, merely speaking of my experiences here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
It gets even stranger. When I make a decision in High Matters, Archangel Gabriel addresses me: Thine Will Be Done, on Earth, As It IS in Heaven, True Sugmad!
I had a close Friend check into matters concerning my True Identity, and he confirms what I have experienced. When he checks on things, he has absolutely NO doubts with the resulting information. He and I have had visions of physical things (high-tech and not of Earth, but underground on Earth) that we are supposed to find. Since these are physical, if we do find these, then he and I will accept this as physical proof of the rest of the information. Until then, we treat this with reservations (considering its nature, wouldn't You??).
So, am I:
The Most Evil One??
or
A total Nutcase??
or
........ (I won't say it)??
Moat
Enlightened
Guess I'd say I'm pretty much an Atheist/realist (at least 'til something better comes along...... Agnostic, maybe?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif ), and believe that my ultimate demise is just that - the end, period. And in contemplating that rather dark eventuality over the years, I've developed an extreme reverence and respect for all of Life, and the balances/complexity/beauty of Nature (and no, I'm not some crazed Bambi/tree hugger, either!!) I feel, possibly, that this is a perspective, a certain "truth" to me, that's impossible to "see" in most formal religions (with promises of Heaven, life after death, endless virgins, re-incarnation, etc...), and as such, lack of that respect/reverence has - and will continue to - lead to many of man's Social struggles, if not our eventual collective demise - IMHO. From stealing a neighbor's cow, to war. So I, for one (and many other reasons) vote without - although in reading Empath's post above, that appears highly un-likely.
I too am enjoying the discussion and different points of view!
(sorry.... not too intellectual) Bob
I too am enjoying the discussion and different points of view!
(sorry.... not too intellectual) Bob
MichiganMan
Enlightened
Reading the thread I notice a pattern of thought among some that basically says "I'm doubtful of organized religion because a few of its adherents have done some pretty wicked things in its name, some to me"
That's less an indictment of organized religion than it is a result of organized religion being made up of human beings, a percentage of whom are always going to misinterpret, misuse, or purposely exploit any system or ideals no matter how perfect it may be. Most of these same individuals, if left to their own "individual spirituality" would still end up exploiting or victimizing others because thats the type of folks they are, and no system of belief will change them.
I've seen some folks in government do some pretty undemocratic, oppressive and socialistic things, some to me. But that doesn't mean that our democracy is a sham. I logically realize that some humans are going to be corrupt and go on with my life. We do this everyday in other areas of our life, but some unrealistically expect religion to be free of this reality.
That's less an indictment of organized religion than it is a result of organized religion being made up of human beings, a percentage of whom are always going to misinterpret, misuse, or purposely exploit any system or ideals no matter how perfect it may be. Most of these same individuals, if left to their own "individual spirituality" would still end up exploiting or victimizing others because thats the type of folks they are, and no system of belief will change them.
I've seen some folks in government do some pretty undemocratic, oppressive and socialistic things, some to me. But that doesn't mean that our democracy is a sham. I logically realize that some humans are going to be corrupt and go on with my life. We do this everyday in other areas of our life, but some unrealistically expect religion to be free of this reality.
I guess there are things that happen in life or that we see that stay with us forever... influencing our lives in so many ways. Possibly causing us to be scarred for life. I've had a few...
My parents divorced when I was around 6 or 7 I guess. My older brother went and lived with my father. My grandmother had alot of influence over my brother during that time and took him to her church every Sunday. My other brother and I continued to go to our Congregational church where "Jesus loves me, this I know....".
Anyway, one day my older brother suggested that we go to his new church with him. We did. I went home crying. Mind you, I was only about 8 years old. I was told that I was a sinner and that I was going to burn in hell and I was told to get on my knees and BEG for God's forgiveness or he would strike me down. Yeah... that's great stuff to tell a child. Talk about abuse? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif You can see what an impact that had on me. I remember it 'til today.
My mother never made me go back to that church. I continued to go to my congregational church and was happy that Jesus loved me again.
BTW... when my parents divorced, my mother who was Catholic was excommunicated from her church. But for a "fee", her church would grant her an annulment and declare my brothers and I illegitimate and let her come back into the church. The same thing happened with my step-father. Both my mother and step-father told them to pound sand and neither has ever been back.
I grew up and met the man I wanted to marry. He was a Catholic. So out of respect for him, we went to both the Catholic church and my good old congregational church to see which one we wanted to get married in. The Catholic priest told me that I must convert to Catholicism or else any children of our union would be *******s. The minister of my church was thrilled that I was getting married and honored that I wanted him to perform the cermony... period. Guess where we got married?
I've seen so much hypocrisy throughout my life when it comes to so-called organized religion. I go through my daily life and see people treating others like crap all week but they go to church every Sunday.
And I remember that little girl crying her eyes out to her Mommy that she didn't want to burn in hell and that she wasn't a sinner. No one can tell me that is right.
My parents divorced when I was around 6 or 7 I guess. My older brother went and lived with my father. My grandmother had alot of influence over my brother during that time and took him to her church every Sunday. My other brother and I continued to go to our Congregational church where "Jesus loves me, this I know....".
Anyway, one day my older brother suggested that we go to his new church with him. We did. I went home crying. Mind you, I was only about 8 years old. I was told that I was a sinner and that I was going to burn in hell and I was told to get on my knees and BEG for God's forgiveness or he would strike me down. Yeah... that's great stuff to tell a child. Talk about abuse? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif You can see what an impact that had on me. I remember it 'til today.
My mother never made me go back to that church. I continued to go to my congregational church and was happy that Jesus loved me again.
BTW... when my parents divorced, my mother who was Catholic was excommunicated from her church. But for a "fee", her church would grant her an annulment and declare my brothers and I illegitimate and let her come back into the church. The same thing happened with my step-father. Both my mother and step-father told them to pound sand and neither has ever been back.
I grew up and met the man I wanted to marry. He was a Catholic. So out of respect for him, we went to both the Catholic church and my good old congregational church to see which one we wanted to get married in. The Catholic priest told me that I must convert to Catholicism or else any children of our union would be *******s. The minister of my church was thrilled that I was getting married and honored that I wanted him to perform the cermony... period. Guess where we got married?
I've seen so much hypocrisy throughout my life when it comes to so-called organized religion. I go through my daily life and see people treating others like crap all week but they go to church every Sunday.
And I remember that little girl crying her eyes out to her Mommy that she didn't want to burn in hell and that she wasn't a sinner. No one can tell me that is right.
[ QUOTE ]
Sigman said:
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and our life is full of it. Very little can be proven, most of what we believe is based on faith. Be it scientific or religeous.
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
Well, dinosaurs and 4000 year old trees are proof of life way before Mohammed, Jesus, Confucious, etc... But I've come across way too many people who still think dinosaur bones are made up and tree rings are just carvings...
Their argument: The theory of evolution is a faith... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Nowhere in the Bible does is give a time between creation of everything before man and the creation of man. It's obvious that the earth is very old. And as far as dinosaurs not being real, that's pretty amazing because they are spoken about in the bible. Again, it's a situation were you met people that didn't read the very bible they claim to follow.
The theory of evolution is a faith. There is absolutely no scientific proof that life as complex and structured as ours could have evolved (Macro-evolution) from a pool/broth of chemicals/amino acids. You can certainly have faith that we did evolve from lower life but don't confuse that faith with scientific proof.
Sigman said:
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and our life is full of it. Very little can be proven, most of what we believe is based on faith. Be it scientific or religeous.
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
Well, dinosaurs and 4000 year old trees are proof of life way before Mohammed, Jesus, Confucious, etc... But I've come across way too many people who still think dinosaur bones are made up and tree rings are just carvings...
Their argument: The theory of evolution is a faith... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Nowhere in the Bible does is give a time between creation of everything before man and the creation of man. It's obvious that the earth is very old. And as far as dinosaurs not being real, that's pretty amazing because they are spoken about in the bible. Again, it's a situation were you met people that didn't read the very bible they claim to follow.
The theory of evolution is a faith. There is absolutely no scientific proof that life as complex and structured as ours could have evolved (Macro-evolution) from a pool/broth of chemicals/amino acids. You can certainly have faith that we did evolve from lower life but don't confuse that faith with scientific proof.
d'mo
Enlightened
Q: What's an agnostic dyslexic insomniac?
A: Someone who lies awake at night wondering if there is a dog.
Seriously though, as a theology student and engineer, I've found this thread to be both enlightening and disturbing. I've never doubted the existence of God, but have always found it interesting that many of the world's organized religions, polytheistic or monotheistic, have remarkably similar teachings and ideals (peace, love, death, etc.)
IMO, what it all boils down to is our humanity. I believe that we have all been "preprogrammed" with a sense of right and wrong and a thirst to know our creator, any creator (yes, evolution IS a religion). I think we've all experienced an "emptiness" that can only be filled when we find our own spiritual focus. Until this "void" is filled, we try to fill it with all sorts of things (friends, family, drugs, sex, pornography, the list goes on...) and will continue looking until we find what we're looking for, or die. When it happens, one's spiritual eyes have been opened.
So what does this mean? Throughout time, mankind has tried to look beyond themselves to answer the unanswerable. Since we are all products of our respective environments and experiences, we will fill the "void" with what we know, rarely taking the time to really try to understand another's core beliefs. We are quick to find peoples differences and "foreignness" and, because we are a product of our culture, we fear them.
Simply put, we fear what we do not understand and tend to condemn any beliefs different from our own. There are few religions that teach hate and death, but lots of them that try to convert people to their ways of thinking. Why? so they are no longer frightening.
A: Someone who lies awake at night wondering if there is a dog.
Seriously though, as a theology student and engineer, I've found this thread to be both enlightening and disturbing. I've never doubted the existence of God, but have always found it interesting that many of the world's organized religions, polytheistic or monotheistic, have remarkably similar teachings and ideals (peace, love, death, etc.)
IMO, what it all boils down to is our humanity. I believe that we have all been "preprogrammed" with a sense of right and wrong and a thirst to know our creator, any creator (yes, evolution IS a religion). I think we've all experienced an "emptiness" that can only be filled when we find our own spiritual focus. Until this "void" is filled, we try to fill it with all sorts of things (friends, family, drugs, sex, pornography, the list goes on...) and will continue looking until we find what we're looking for, or die. When it happens, one's spiritual eyes have been opened.
So what does this mean? Throughout time, mankind has tried to look beyond themselves to answer the unanswerable. Since we are all products of our respective environments and experiences, we will fill the "void" with what we know, rarely taking the time to really try to understand another's core beliefs. We are quick to find peoples differences and "foreignness" and, because we are a product of our culture, we fear them.
Simply put, we fear what we do not understand and tend to condemn any beliefs different from our own. There are few religions that teach hate and death, but lots of them that try to convert people to their ways of thinking. Why? so they are no longer frightening.
Brotherscrim
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
d'mo said:
(yes, evolution IS a religion).
[/ QUOTE ]
re·li·gion
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I don't know man. The theory of evolution (I think that's what you actually meant to say, as I am pretty sure that you didn't mean the process of evolving itself is religion)
doesn't fit well with these definitions:
1. This one might have worked, if it weren't for two things. "Reverence" is just not something you get for scientific theories. Also, Evolution makes no claim of a "supernatural" creator and governor of the universe. The whole point of the sciences is that they deal only with natural processes.
2. This one won't work either, as it's contingent on #1
3. This one's based on #2
4. Well, I suppose this would work if the scientific community had a spiritual leader. But since "spirit" is a supernatural concept, it fails as well. Now, before somebody tries to tell me that Darwin is that leader, keep in mind that his observations have been studied and independently verified by geologists, biologists, and many others. Therefore, the fact he was a pioneer in the field doesn't make him the authority. If he never existed, the DNA sequences and fossil record and so forth would be the same.
5. Ah, now we've got something! This definition works.
So in conclusion, I suppose you could say that the theory of evolution is a religion for some people - in the same way that football is a religion for some people.
d'mo said:
(yes, evolution IS a religion).
[/ QUOTE ]
re·li·gion
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I don't know man. The theory of evolution (I think that's what you actually meant to say, as I am pretty sure that you didn't mean the process of evolving itself is religion)
doesn't fit well with these definitions:
1. This one might have worked, if it weren't for two things. "Reverence" is just not something you get for scientific theories. Also, Evolution makes no claim of a "supernatural" creator and governor of the universe. The whole point of the sciences is that they deal only with natural processes.
2. This one won't work either, as it's contingent on #1
3. This one's based on #2
4. Well, I suppose this would work if the scientific community had a spiritual leader. But since "spirit" is a supernatural concept, it fails as well. Now, before somebody tries to tell me that Darwin is that leader, keep in mind that his observations have been studied and independently verified by geologists, biologists, and many others. Therefore, the fact he was a pioneer in the field doesn't make him the authority. If he never existed, the DNA sequences and fossil record and so forth would be the same.
5. Ah, now we've got something! This definition works.
So in conclusion, I suppose you could say that the theory of evolution is a religion for some people - in the same way that football is a religion for some people.
Al_Havemann
Enlightened
I cannot believe this thread!. A topic such as this is usually a flame contest, to say the least. There is no greater subject of controversy.
I haven't been a member if CPF that long, but let me say that you have all done yourselves proud. If fact, (and please don't be offended!), I am personally proud of each and every one of you for the adult way you have responded. Congratulations to all.
I normally won't touch religion as a subject. When I was a child and went to church with my mother and being too young to know better, I once pestered the minister with questions like "where is god" and "where is hell and why can't I see angels", I was quite persistent about it. My questions were answered with a slap to the face by the minister and a sharp reprimand to my mother to "school the boy". I had little use for any organized religion after that and turned to science for answers by studying physics, cosmology, and mathematics, subjects that deliver hard, testable facts.
Religion encourages only blind faith and is quite irreconcilable with the methods of science and the requirement to question, test and question some more until the facts are solid, provable.
The results of the scientific method can be seen in everyday products that make up our entire civilization. There is a lot that I could toss into the mix I suppose, but it's all been said by others better than I could.
Taking out spirituality out of the picture but including organized religion, I have to be on the "better off without" side.
I haven't been a member if CPF that long, but let me say that you have all done yourselves proud. If fact, (and please don't be offended!), I am personally proud of each and every one of you for the adult way you have responded. Congratulations to all.
I normally won't touch religion as a subject. When I was a child and went to church with my mother and being too young to know better, I once pestered the minister with questions like "where is god" and "where is hell and why can't I see angels", I was quite persistent about it. My questions were answered with a slap to the face by the minister and a sharp reprimand to my mother to "school the boy". I had little use for any organized religion after that and turned to science for answers by studying physics, cosmology, and mathematics, subjects that deliver hard, testable facts.
Religion encourages only blind faith and is quite irreconcilable with the methods of science and the requirement to question, test and question some more until the facts are solid, provable.
The results of the scientific method can be seen in everyday products that make up our entire civilization. There is a lot that I could toss into the mix I suppose, but it's all been said by others better than I could.
Taking out spirituality out of the picture but including organized religion, I have to be on the "better off without" side.
d'mo
Enlightened
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Brotherscrim said:
...I suppose you could say that the theory of evolution is a religion for some people - in the same way that football is a religion for some people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, why not. If that is what fills the void in ones life, go for it. My father once said, " I don't care what you believe, just try to believe in something greater than yourself. You'll need it to fall back on some day." I've found this to be true. I suppose that's why my mother is Presbyterian, my father is Wesleyan, my sister is Pentecostal, my brother is Mennonite and I'm Catholic. Not only that, but we all get together and are as civil as this thread.
Brotherscrim said:
...I suppose you could say that the theory of evolution is a religion for some people - in the same way that football is a religion for some people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, why not. If that is what fills the void in ones life, go for it. My father once said, " I don't care what you believe, just try to believe in something greater than yourself. You'll need it to fall back on some day." I've found this to be true. I suppose that's why my mother is Presbyterian, my father is Wesleyan, my sister is Pentecostal, my brother is Mennonite and I'm Catholic. Not only that, but we all get together and are as civil as this thread.
Brotherscrim
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
d'mo said:
My father once said, " I don't care what you believe, just try to believe in something greater than yourself. You'll need it to fall back on some day."
[/ QUOTE ]
What a wonderful piece of advice! I'd share some of the advice my father gave me, but it's not really appropriate for a public forum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Honestly though, your dad sounds like a sharp guy.
d'mo said:
My father once said, " I don't care what you believe, just try to believe in something greater than yourself. You'll need it to fall back on some day."
[/ QUOTE ]
What a wonderful piece of advice! I'd share some of the advice my father gave me, but it's not really appropriate for a public forum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Honestly though, your dad sounds like a sharp guy.
[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
...don't confuse that faith with scientific proof.
[/ QUOTE ]
That would apply to the theory of creationism too, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! Well that is the short answer. I can give a longer one as to why I believe one over the other. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
I've seen so much hypocrisy throughout my life when it comes to so-called organized religion. I go through my daily life and see people treating others like crap all week but they go to church every Sunday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Truer words were never spoken. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
...don't confuse that faith with scientific proof.
[/ QUOTE ]
That would apply to the theory of creationism too, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! Well that is the short answer. I can give a longer one as to why I believe one over the other. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
I've seen so much hypocrisy throughout my life when it comes to so-called organized religion. I go through my daily life and see people treating others like crap all week but they go to church every Sunday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Truer words were never spoken. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
d'mo
Enlightened
As a regular church attender, I too have seen this. Personally, I think if you're going to treat others or drive like crap, please take the fish outline or Harvest bumper sticker off your car so you don't give the rest of "us" a bad name.
WaltH
Enlightened
Friedrich Nietzsche
God is dead
God is dead
Brotherscrim
Enlightened
Bauhaus
Bella Lagoussi's dead
Bella Lagoussi's dead
