Akaline Battery Leakage/Usage Poll (Part 2)

[JemR]

I'm with Sub Umbra on this. Some warehouse and delivery people don't tread any electronic devices with much care. Ever got a box with "THIS WAY UP" and a big arrow emblazoned on the side, and/or "Handle With Care". Are they really always carefully handled that way up the whole way from production to end user? I'm afraid I doubt it. Battery's must also rattle around together in boxes as they are tossed around the world's oceans and ports on their way to you. Bad news in anything you care about and spent good money on IMO. Some producers must despair.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I'm with Sub Umbra on this. Some warehouse and delivery people don't tread any electronic devices with much care. Ever got a box with "THIS WAY UP" and a big arrow emblazoned on the side, and/or "Handle With Care". Are they really always carefully handled that way up the whole way from production to end user? I'm afraid I doubt it. Battery's must also rattle around together in boxes as they are tossed around the world's oceans and ports on their way to you. Bad news in anything you care about and spent good money on IMO. Some producers must despair.

I think the problem is trying to figure out what mistreatment or abuse batteries can handle without leaking. I suspect the battery companies know more than they let out and perhaps leakage is higher than people realize but since maybe less than 10% of people force the battery companies to pay for the damage by taking advantage of their warranty and demanding satisfaction the battery companies get off easy. If like I have said only 10% pursue a claim then the cost of leakage is perhaps even less than 10% as I would suspect many get the brush off in the end getting maybe free batteries, if everyone that had an alkaline leak contacted the battery companies and gave them a huge hassle for the next 5 years I think suddenly they would put more effort into making them less leak prone.

 

[SaraAB87]

One thing I have learned is the average consumer mistreats batteries horribly. We are not average consumers on this board though. I shop yard sales, I have seen people mix lithum AA's with carbon zinc, rechargables with alkaline, and just about every other combo you can imagine. Most people in reality don't even know the difference between carbon zinc and alkaline. Though its a nice surprise to find rechargables where you least expect them. I have seen lithum AA in the most low drain devices, though not a bad idea if you want to avoid leaks but very expensive if you are getting them at retail. People have also sold me items that are broken but work fine when I put new batteries in, leading me to believe that some people are too lazy to change batteries or that perhaps although odd, they don't know how to change the batteries. Most things with leaks I have been able to rescue but 99% of the time those batteries leak because they are old and have been sitting in whatever for years.

The maxell batteries are the worst I have seen, just go read the complaints on amazon. Fortunately around here I haven't seen Maxell batteries for sale at major retailers though they did have some LSD maxell rechargeables at Kmart. I was going to complain to them about the batteries however the ones I had didn't come in a package and I didn't have a receipt for the batteries themselves. I also couldn't find anywhere to complain about them online and getting free maxell batteries doesn't sound too appealing.

The other case of leakage I described before was a Ray-O-Vac alkaline, It just leaked randomly while sitting in my box. I cannot verify where it came from though.

 

[reppans]

From Energizer...

13. What increases the possibility for alkaline battery leakage?

Typically alkaline batteries will not leak under normal storage and/or usage conditions. The potential for leakage is significantly increased however if the batteries are subjected to charging, mixing of battery chemistries, mixing of fresh and used batteries, physical damage, extended exposure to high temperature or deep discharged. Alkaline battery leakage is extremely caustic and contact with bare skin should be avoided. In the event that battery leakage comes in contact with your skin, flush the area for 15 minutes with copious amounts of water and seek medical attention.

The big question is what is "normal storage" and what causes "physical damage."

Am I missing something? Are some of you saying that if my Energizer or Duracell where properly handled buy wholesellers and retailers, it should not leak, even if deeply discharged? I was under the impression that an Alkaline will usually leak if left in a device long enough to deep discharge.... which is very often the scenario for us lazy consumers using alks in low drain infrequently used items like: back-up batteries for clock radios, forgotten kids toys and remote controls, etc.

I've had a lot of Alks leak, but I'll take responsibility because I've left it in the device forever without monitoring it's SoC. If switching to a professional battery retailer/handler would allow me to let alks fully discharge in a device without leaking, then I would be happy to switch retailers, even at higher cost.

Is this your experience Sub Umbra (since I didn't see mention of deep discharging alks in your posts)?

Thanks.... would love to learn something new.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

...I've had a lot of Alks leak, but I'll take responsibility because I've left it in the device forever without monitoring it's SoC. If switching to a professional battery retailer/handler would allow me to let alks fully discharge in a device without leaking, then I would be happy to switch retailers, even at higher cost.

Is this your experience Sub Umbra (since I didn't see mention of deep discharging alks in your posts)?

Thanks.... would love to learn something new.

A couple points. We're pretty careful about deep discharges with alkys. Aside from a few remotes and clocks the vast majority of our alkaline use is body mics and I think that most of them require a min V such that they cut off before any kind of deep discharge. So no, no intentional deep discharges for us.

As far as the price goes I really don't see any difference between buying at brick and mortar stores or specialists -- it's competitive. Looking at the big picture with one I pay shipping and no tax and with the other I pay tax and no shipping.

The good news is that the specialty houses don't seem to cost more.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Reppans,

Of the 6 things listed as possible causes of leaking, I believe any one of them can cause the cell to leak. The chances of leaking go up if you combine several of the causes.

Tom

 

[reppans]

Thanks for the explanations, it does make sense now.

I do suspect that, by a vast margin, most of us that have experienced leaks do so out of sheer neglect on deep discharging - ie, not monitoring SoC as we might with NiMh, and certainly Li-ions, both of which I reserve for high use devices, and believe most other people do as well.

With 6 primary factors contributing to leaky Alks, 4 of them are under my sole control so that really leaves only two in the hands of the retailers - physical damage and excessive heat. Nothing can be done about the container shipment from factory to retailer, but something can be done with storage at the retailer and delivery to the consumer.

While I certainly agree a professional will take better care of storage at the retailer, this control is lost during shipment to the consumer with an online purchase... who knows what USPS and UPS exposes the batts to.

I personally feel a little better with buying Alks from brick and mortar, if only to be able to inspect the package, physically read the expiration dates, and the easy of return if so unsatisfied. However, this whole thread has made me want to revert to lithium primaries for all my long-term, low draw devices that I will likely neglect and allow to go into deep discharge.... and with these, it definitely makes sense to buy from a professional online retailer since the price difference is much more significant, not to mention that chemistry is more resilient.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I am wondering if the date stamped on cells had a little to do with leakage of older cells as I have found that I am getting more leaking close to the expiration date.

 

[apagogeas]

Nice post count Lynx... brrr :naughty:
I had alkalines leak regardless of brand, mostly used in remotes which aren't of course subject to extreme heat or any sort of abuse. Those that have leaked, are generally forgotten there for years unused and when found, in most cases there was a leak. I never had a leak in a regularly used device or constantly under load (clocks or consuming the battery within months). Some of those leaked were down to 0 volts, some to 0.8V some even 1.3V. Some where well past their expiry, some were around their expiry date, some before expiry. I never had a panasonic or maxell leak, I had energizers and sony leak and other brands I can't recall now. Also among the cheapest no name batteries (or never heard of or advertized) I had a similar experience; some leak some don't. So, I can't conclude a definite reason why a battery may leak but I feel that if an alkaline is not used up, it will leak eventually. I still use cheap alkalines (or those that come with new gadgets) in clocks where a battery can last more than a year or two and has the battery constantly under load. I stopped using them in remotes (LSD in use now) because of the usage pattern I feel it can produce a leak. For anything else, LSD or some older NiMH till they are tossed.

 

[SaraAB87]

How does everyone feel about carbon zinc in remotes? Basic remotes without lights at least. Do these leak less than alkaline? Most of my remotes are extremely low drain and do not have lights or anything. The remotes with lights or other types of remotes obviously use more batteries and would require different types. My TV came with a remote and batteries that are obviously carbon zinc and after more than 6 months the remote shows no drain at all when batteries are put on a quick tester and I use the remote often. Obviously carbon batteries are more than adequate for this application. The batteries are dated 2013 so I will replace them a month or 2 before they are set to expire to be safe even if they are not dead. I probably have more batteries than I can use so I can afford to replace them when getting into the danger zone.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

How does everyone feel about carbon zinc in remotes? Basic remotes without lights at least. Do these leak less than alkaline? Most of my remotes are extremely low drain and do not have lights or anything. The remotes with lights or other types of remotes obviously use more batteries and would require different types. My TV came with a remote and batteries that are obviously carbon zinc and after more than 6 months the remote shows no drain at all when batteries are put on a quick tester and I use the remote often. Obviously carbon batteries are more than adequate for this application. The batteries are dated 2013 so I will replace them a month or 2 before they are set to expire to be safe even if they are not dead. I probably have more batteries than I can use so I can afford to replace them when getting into the danger zone.

Two problems with carbon zinc....
1)leaks are a LOT worse
2)warranty if they do leak may be non existant
As for their capacity probably half that of alkalines they are suitable for remotes but for clocks having to replace them 2-3 times more often may not be worth the savings. I use zinc carbon (heavy duty) only in my cheap $3 DMMs because occasionally I leave one on and drain the battery and alkalines cost about 4-5 times as much so far I have done that 3 times so I have spend $1.88 on heavy duty cells for 4 batteries vs $2.50 for one alkaline 9v.

 

[yliu]

I had no alkalines leaking since I got into flashlights and started to take care of batteries.

 

[JemR]

I think the problem is trying to figure out what mistreatment or abuse batteries can handle without leaking. I suspect the battery companies know more than they let out and perhaps leakage is higher than people realize but since maybe less than 10% of people force the battery companies to pay for the damage by taking advantage of their warranty and demanding satisfaction the battery companies get off easy. If like I have said only 10% pursue a claim then the cost of leakage is perhaps even less than 10% as I would suspect many get the brush off in the end getting maybe free batteries, if everyone that had an alkaline leak contacted the battery companies and gave them a huge hassle for the next 5 years I think suddenly they would put more effort into making them less leak prone.

Yes, Lynx Arc. Your about right with all of that. Most leakages are unreported and claimed on. Nearly all of them I suspect. If we all complained things would change. I fairly sure I know it would if alkaline was suddenly the only chemistry available and all our phones, laptops and iPad's had to ran on them. In less than 5 minutes probably. But with most people if there is a leak in a low cost item, they will simply bin it all and start again. "Throwaway Society" Opportunity to buy something new. That does let the makers off the hook, that is true. Inappropriate handling on route to the consumer and then by the consumer must be a factor in many. I have never just thrown packs into the bottom of a shopping trolley, then lumped bags of potatoes and bottles of drink on top of them. Unfortunately, with the varying qualities of batteries it's very difficult to calculate the abuse thresholds you hope for, I think. There is also a financial aspect in regards to packaging of cause. Better packaging means higher price per battery. Enough to mean many people won't want to buy them, they will always go for the very cheapest. The other brands need to compete so it all stays the same. I never put an alkaline battery anywhere near a flashlight. Even with my small AAA lights I put in L92's (voted in the poll). Extra cost. Yes, but for me they are worth it to know that when I really need the light, or lend it, it will have a far, far better chance of working. I make that decision before I buy a light as factored in running costs. I'm sure most of us do. For many though, the power source is the last thing they think about. They buy something new then scramble around in cupboards for batteries. After thought. Maybe the whole pricing of batteries was wrong from the beginning. If they were, say 20%, 30% or more in price, they might be better designed and made, and sent in better packaging. Or, more likely, most of the makers would just ended up having made extra profit on them.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Yes, Lynx Arc. Your about right with all of that. Most leakages are unreported and claimed on. Nearly all of them I suspect. If we all complained things would change. I fairly sure I know it would if alkaline was suddenly the only chemistry available and all our phones, laptops and iPad's had to ran on them. In less than 5 minutes probably. But with most people if there is a leak in a low cost item, they will simply bin it all and start again. "Throwaway Society" Opportunity to buy something new. That does let the makers off the hook, that is true. Inappropriate handling on route to the consumer and then by the consumer must be a factor in many. I have never just thrown packs into the bottom of a shopping trolley, then lumped bags of potatoes and bottles of drink on top of them. Unfortunately, with the varying qualities of batteries it's very difficult to calculate the abuse thresholds you hope for, I think. There is also a financial aspect in regards to packaging of cause. Better packaging means higher price per battery. Enough to mean many people won't want to buy them, they will always go for the very cheapest. The other brands need to compete so it all stays the same. I never put an alkaline battery anywhere near a flashlight. Even with my small AAA lights I put in L92's (voted in the poll). Extra cost. Yes, but for me they are worth it to know that when I really need the light, or lend it, it will have a far, far better chance of working. I make that decision before I buy a light as factored in running costs. I'm sure most of us do. For many though, the power source is the last thing they think about. They buy something new then scramble around in cupboards for batteries. After thought. Maybe the whole pricing of batteries was wrong from the beginning. If they were, say 20%, 30% or more in price, they might be better designed and made, and sent in better packaging. Or, more likely, most of the makers would just ended up having made extra profit on them.

One thing I just thought of reading your post was some of the reasons for leakage.... like excessive heat and mishandling makes you rethink about putting them in something you aren't going to treat with kid gloves. Imagine forgetting your flashlight in the car on a hot summer day or dropping it on the ground from 4 feet in the air and cringing thinking.... oh no!... I better replace these alkaline batteries they are bound to leak now I have mistreated them. Makes you wonder how much abuse they really can really take in use without incident.

 

[45/70]

I checked the first, and last three. I wasn't sure that would work, but it seemed to.

I have very few alkaline cells leak anymore, but then again I really don't use very many. I use a few that come packaged with items, but most of those I give away to people I don't particularly like. OK, not so much that, but I give most of them away.

I'm mostly NiMH/Li-Ion these days, the same as the last poll (Part 1?). For lights and such that are tucked away, I use lithium primary cells. For some devices that won't tolerate NiMH due to voltage requirements, I use NiZn, or sometimes lithium primary. "9 Volt" batteries are all 8.4 Volt NiMH.

The only alkaline cells I use regularly, are button cells. I'm still looking into NiMH button cells for these applications, but am not really sure whether it'd be worth it, or not. I have had alkaline button cells leak around the gasket, but it seems to be fairly rare.

Dave

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I checked the first, and last three. I wasn't sure that would work, but it seemed to.

Theoretically you could check every single box in the poll, but that would tend to defeat the purpose of it as the first section is the most important while the next two sections is to kind of get a feel for how people are reacting to new options compared to alkalines.

The only alkaline cells I use regularly, are button cells. I'm still looking into NiMH button cells for these applications, but am not really sure whether it'd be worth it, or not. I have had alkaline button cells leak around the gasket, but it seems to be fairly rare.

Dave

I have found over the years that button cells can leak but there is so little stuff in them that the damage is minimized. I have had things messed up by them but the damage is less than half of what happens with normal sized cells (AAAA and larger). As for using nimh for button cells unless you are using them up really fast it isn't worth it as the capacity of them is a big drawback along with cost when you can buy button cells for 10 cents each or less. I have myself looked for devices powered by coin cells instead of button cells even though more expensive they have a lot more capacity to them and 10 years later still have considerably capacity left to them.... no leaks either.

 

[JemR]

One thing I just thought of reading your post was some of the reasons for leakage.... like excessive heat and mishandling makes you rethink about putting them in something you aren't going to treat with kid gloves. Imagine forgetting your flashlight in the car on a hot summer day or dropping it on the ground from 4 feet in the air and cringing thinking.... oh no!... I better replace these alkaline batteries they are bound to leak now I have mistreated them. Makes you wonder how much abuse they really can really take in use without incident.

The bag of potatoes thing, that got you thinking? I could have used any hard vegetable, carrots, corn, frozen pea's etc. But not the tomato. Because batteries should be treated like fresh tomatoes. Handled with care, kept in a cool dry place and things not dumped on top of them! Joking aside. Yes, cars are a problem, no doubt. I have read another thread about emergency flashlights kept in cars. The temperature changes can be vast in some places, summer to winter. I think if someone has to keep changing them out or checking them because of the fear they may leak in those situations (rightly IMO), it's probably better to get lithium or NiMh in the first place. Just to avoid most of the worry. And on that dark road if the car breaks down the extra investment will all be worth it.

 

[tickled]

I had a white box of D-cell Procells sitting in the coolest part of the house, forgotten for the past 10 years (expiration 2013). One of the cells had leaked. That must have been the cell that was dropped and run over by the forklift driver.

 

[JemR]

I had a white box of D-cell Procells sitting in the coolest part of the house, forgotten for the past 10 years (expiration 2013). One of the cells had leaked. That must have been the cell that was dropped and run over by the forklift driver.

They have done very well tickled. Perhaps the tomato type thing works. Hang on though. I thought Procells were one of the better regular Duracell products in a different branding for bulk. Where did you get some with a 11 year expiry, 10 years ago? Are you sure they're alkaline?

 

[Shadowww]

procell's are exactly same as coppertop's, they have exactly same specs and even part numbers. only wrapper/packaging differs.