And a follow on about LEDs

[kbuzbee]

Same car, 2002 VW Jetta with 9007s. Is anyone making LED headlights for these yet? LEDs seem to be everywhere and some are quite bright (Fenix TK40?) but are they appropriate for automotive headlights?

Thanks!

Ken

 

[tay]

No. They are supposed to be pretty good LED headlights in the R8, LS600hl, and Escalade, but those are $$$ and fit only the car they are intended for.

7" LED sealed beam replacements are out, but their performance is lackluster.

People have had success making driving lights and spot lights with LEDs, but as of yet no one has made a custom LED low-beam.

And, obviously, there won't be a usable replacement that fits in your stock housing, since LEDs require different optics.

 

[kbuzbee]

Thanks Tay!

And, obviously, there won't be a usable replacement that fits in your stock housing, since LEDs require different optics.

Obvious to YOU but I really don't know much about headlight architecture. I'll take your word for it (though I wish it was possible).

Ken

 

[tay]

Just don't buy anything that looks like this:

Simply stacking a bunch of low output LEDs on a headlight bulb base will not give you enough light and will not properly focus the light.

 

[kbuzbee]

Is that a real thing?? Fascinating.

Ken

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

If you do a google image search for all the cars listed above, you can see what real LED headlights look like. Great output. I'm surprised that the truck-lite LED aftermarket headlights are even DOT legal...

 

[Phatty McPatty]

LED replacements for 9006, 9007, etc. are not intended for headlight replacements but rather DTRLs and fog lights. The sites that sell these usually state this. The newest versions have 1/2 watt LEDs, which are as "bright" as the halogens they replace BUT it's mostly unfocused glare. I currently use them (V-LEDS.com) in my fog lights to match the COLOR of the HIDs. They look bright when you're facing them, but the light is mostly stray, making it appear bright, but doesn't increase the amount of usable light on the ground.LED lamps that are made to fit into optics designed for halogen will never perform as well as halogen. Halogen optics are designed to reflect and direct light from a single, omni-directional point (the filament). A single LED has a narrow, uni-directional beam. In order to mimic omni-directional light output, these manufacturers (V-LEDS included) make a cylinder mount and wrap it in LEDs. It's not the same but the best you can do with optics designed for a different type of light source.The other issue is heat. Halogen technology is based on making light from heat. LEDs are just the opposite, and emit less light as the heat increases (and "heat" is relative to the technologies; where halogen heat production can burn you if you touch it, LEDs need only to get warm to slash it's light output). So without proper heat dissipation (in other words, heat sinks, which, by design, halogen assemblies don't have), LEDs can't output a consistent amount of light anyway.Bottom line, without proper heat management and optics designed for LEDs, aftermarket LED bulbs can't produce a bright, safe, consistent, and usable light pattern by retrofitting them into halogen optics.All this said, I use LEDs in my fog lights and parking lights in order to color match my HIDs. This is something that blue-tinted incandescent and halogen bulbs can't compete with, since LEDs can reproduce any visible light color temp + infrared.Patrick

 

[kbuzbee]

Great explanation! Appreciate it.

I've been amazed at the developments in LED technology / products over the last year.

Can't wait to see what the future will bring.

Ken

 

[Phatty McPatty]

Ken, you and me both! Solid state technology is facinating! It's extremely efficient (pennies/watt compared to dollars/watt), reliable (thosands of hours lifespan compared to hundreds), durable (to physical shocks and vibrations, sub-zero temps, etc.) and flexible (can be used in miniscule lighting applications to extremely high output applications like flood lights, military infrared beams, fiber optics, etc).We have the technology, the key now is to design optics that work with this type of light output. We're still in the early stages of LED optics, but we're progressing everyday. LEDs ARE the future of lighting (CFLs were a nice idea but not innovative enough for many reasons). For now LED technology is relatively expensive. As LED technology expands however, you'll see the cost become more and more reasonable.What really hampers change from incandescent/halogen/fluorescent tech to LED tech is the need to overhaul the entire consumer/professional lighting standards. Getting away from screw-in bulb types by creating a new-from-the-ground-up type of replaceable LED lamp and LED assembly (everything from flashlights to table lamps to overhead lighting to stadium floods) will take time. For now, the LED industry is stuck retrofitting LEDs in screw-in bulb types, but as discussed in vehicle retrofitting, it's not able to meet it's full potential when based off of an antiquated lighting technology. Consumers don't like change, and manufacturers are hesitent to create change! The pace is slow, but still very exciting!Patrick

 

[kbuzbee]

Consumers don't like change, and manufacturers are hesitent to create change! The pace is slow, but still very exciting!Patrick

Well said.

I'm not so sure consumers don't like change. I think the hesitancy, as you say, is the current expense and in the case of completely new technology (as opposed to simple bulb exchange) there is the hassle of new fixtures and such.

Ken

 

[Phatty McPatty]

Yes BUT!These are the same consumers that, upon hearing the sale of incandescent bulbs would become outlawed in much of Europe, began hoarding incandescent light bulbs! Expect much of the same in the US when they follow suit. New shoes are always a bit uncomfortable at first, but eventually become your favorite kicks! Patrick

 

[blasterman]

Consumers don't like change, and manufacturers are hesitent to create change

I live in Michigan, and have worked with all the big three. Trust me, I don't have flattering things to say about that industry. Consumers would happily prefer a vehicle with no bulbs to change. However, consumers are not going to get an LED option that retrofits into current headlamp optics.

As I've explained in numerous other threads, there is no magical engineering lab running supercomputers with german engineers walking around in clean suits trying to come up with the perfect LED headlamp. It's marketing / cost cutting first with innovation priority ranking below cutting the grass in front of the corporate headquarters.

LEDs by nature already emit in a narrow 120pattern, which by itself presents a much easier scenario than the capsule style reflector required to focus the light with a halogen or HID. It's as easy as using a lenticular acrylic panel in front of the LED to focus the damn thing into any pattern you wish. Then stuff a nichrome mesh behind it to melt ice. It would cost less than a halogen/HID assembly and be less offensive to oncoming drivers because the lenticular panel would present far less specular / point brightness.

An engineer in India or China will likely figure it out though. Meanwhile a $10 optic can project a Cree die on top of a skyscraper, but the autmotive industry can't figure out how to manage LED light. Problem exists between keyboard and chair, not the technology.

 

[poormanq45]

Hopefully someone will make an addon light based off the SST-90.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

B-Man, there are quite a few automobiles out there with great LED forward lighting, much better than halogen. Of course, right now these are on top of the line cars where they like to take the fancy or expensive way out. You are definitely right about the industry not embracing the technology. Heck, I went to an Audi dealership to see if I could get a first-hand view of the new R8 (now the old R8) LED headlamps. The sales rep went on to tell me that the HID headlamp WAS the LED headlamp. I actually had to inform him that Audi R8 has a full LED headlamp option as well.

R8
LS600h
Escalade Platinum

Havent seen much about the escalade, but the other two are available right now, and the new R8 will actually use the LED "swoosh" as the mainbeams, instead of an LED hybrid projector/reflector.

edit: and there are add-on driving lamps (not lowbeams, not fogs, so no use around other cars) utilizing SSC P7 on the market, and a member here was actually trying to make some customizable pods. Clint something or other, iirc.

 

[Phatty McPatty]

Don't forget the non-luxury Prius has LED headlights too!

 

[Illum]

Just don't buy anything that looks like this:

Simply stacking a bunch of low output LEDs on a headlight bulb base will not give you enough light and will not properly focus the light.

typical "direct retrofits" has absolutely no heatsinking....and all your paying for is the cost of LEDs and the labor of some idiot who knew nothing of LEDs

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

LED replacements for 9006, 9007, etc. are not intended for headlight replacements but rather DTRLs and fog lights. The sites that sell these usually state this. The newest versions have 1/2 watt LEDs, which are as "bright" as the halogens they replace BUT it's mostly unfocused glare.

I'm sorry, this is simply untrue. Neither DRL's nor fog lights are just illuminated housings that put light out the front; both have specific beam pattern specifications and legal requirements to meet. An LED "retrofit" satisfies none of them.

A 1/2w LED might be bright enough to be a DRL if you group 10 of them together, but it will not work as a fog light bulb, at all. A 55w H3 halogen bulb(commonly used in fog lamps) is around 1500 lumens. This does not even consider beam pattern requirements, the light source simply isn't bright enough.

Unfocused glare is useless and dangerous, if the light doesn't illuminate the road then at best the light is absolutely useless. If the light strays into oncoming driver's eyes, it's also dangerous.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Scheinwerfermann would have been along to do it soon enough anyway. I'm sure he'll chime in anyway. Welcome to CPF.

:buddies:

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

DRL's are meant to shine in people's eyes. although the blueness of cheap LEDs would be much more harsh on the eyes than the warm orange of a halogen being electrically starved. City lights (is that the right term?) are meant to just shine in a general forward direction.

Fogs on some cars seem to be just decoration, and I believe that is what Pat meant.

I'm losing faith in "dot-compliant" though. I saw the Truck-lite LED headlight, first aftermarket dot-compliant LED option. I would have puked, but I hadn't eaten yet.... Not what I'd consider a low-beam. More like a pencil beam that has wings. It may be DOT compliant, but I could make a lowbeam that does the same thing (illuminate road, but not others' eyes), but much better.