Are beam tint and CRI more valuable for flood than for throw?

Paul_in_Maryland

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A high color-rendering index (CRI) and pleasing tint are always nice to have. But I find them more useful when I need light up-close.

When I need to project light 1 or 2 meters in front of me, I'm usually trying to find something: a contact lens on a carpet, a key in the grass, a port on the back of a computer.

When I need to project light 50 meters away, I'm usually just trying to see whether something is there.

OK, this is a gross generalization; a nighttime cyclist needs a beam that's both far-reaching and high-quality to discern danger as quickly as possible. The same cyclist needs lights that project far AND wide.

What do you think? Would you pay more for high CRI in a flooder?
 

cummins4x4

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My limited experience is with 2 aspheric throwers I have, one is typical cool white bluish tinge which is a Deree, compared to my custom Mag which is warmer. The beam from the mag is narrower but it still shows colours and details better past 100 yards. My 2 little SWM EDC's have different tints with the cool white being more useful when there is a lot of ambient light, the warmer is better when its really dark. I am very new to the tint lottery but I see positive's for either depending on the application. my .02
 

Cataract

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I'd pay more for High CRI for any flashlight I want, period. Good color rendition is just so much more pleasant and makes many (if not any) things easier to spot.

To get back to the thread title, I would tend to think that High CRI is much more useful for throw, as cummins4x4 mentioned, warmer color tends to throw further especially in misty / foggy air and I suspect that high CRI's should beat regular neutral/warms in that department too.
 

eh4

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what little I know comes from discussions here regarding low level light and the significance of frequencies of light and the structure of the eye.
read this great article: http://stlplaces.com/night_vision_red_myth/ and see what you think about center focus visual acuity of the eye.

What I gathered from the article and from conversations here is that if I want to make detailed observations about what I am looking directly at, then I want the high density of red sensitive cones in the center of my eye to have some red light bouncing off of the object being viewed.

If I want the maximum visual stimulation from the faintest light (detecting the presence of a distant object) then blue/green (teal) light should be the most effective. -More true for peripheral vision, in the extremes you'll have a relatively blind spot in your center of focus.

So cool white might seem brighter, and actually allow you to detect objects further away, having more lumens devoted to the blue/green part of the spectrum.

While warm white might seem dimmer, and actually allow you to make out more detail of what you are looking directly at... (part of the "lower lumens" of warm led output is due to their putting out light in the frequencies around red, while the lumens are biased twards blue due to our eye's sensitivity to blue/green.)

Also natural objects (rocks, bark, dirt, fur, feathers, etc.) Allegedly tend to reflect warm tones better than cool tones.

If you are more interested in Being seen from a distance then cool white should be better, likewise if you just want to blind someone (and maybe yourself) then cool white should be better.

The article does a much better job of explaining, I've just processed it down for easy swallowing and at the same time probably reduced the quality of the information.
 
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eh4

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Less words.
Some red in the light is More important for throw, to trigger the high density of red sensitive cones in the center of our field of view.
For peripheral vision motion detection blue/green (teal) will be most effective at triggering the rods.

So a minimal lighting solution would be spotlight 15 degrees or less deep red light, along with a flood light of 180+ degrees teal light. Sounds pretty gross, I'll take a warm high CRI thanks.

For deliberately creating night blindness by bleaching out someone's rhodopsin (visual purple), the brightest teal light would do the most bleaching... So cool white blaster would be optimal as a defensive light, the green laser "dazzlers" even more so.
 

nullity

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When I was in the woods, my (lost) p2d q5 was able to illuminate things over 50 yards away, but I could not tell the distance of the differing levels of foliage. The cool light just hit a wall, concerning how my 25yr eyes saw it. I could see things, but I was missing something.

I knew nothing about LEDs back then, but I believe the problem was low CRI.
 

GaAslamp

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To get back to the thread title, I would tend to think that High CRI is much more useful for throw, as cummins4x4 mentioned, warmer color tends to throw further especially in misty / foggy air and I suspect that high CRI's should beat regular neutral/warms in that department too.

I'm not convinced that CRI per se has anything to do with penetrating fog or in general air filled with particulates of some sort. It depends on which wavelengths happen to penetrate better and the spectrum of the emitter in question. Furthermore, which wavelengths penetrate better is largely determined by the size of the particulates--for typical fog or fine white smoke, I do believe that longer wavelengths of visible light penetrate better, so there probably is some truth to what you said regarding overall tint (although the specific spectrum is really what counts). As for CRI, it's really just a broad measure of color rendering accuracy with respect to what the color temperature happens to be, which seems like apples & oranges to me. :thinking: For example, a typical high-CRI emitter of a given color temperature may have more penetrating red than lower-CRI emitters have, but it may have more cyan and green as well, which gets scattered by the particulates, causing glare. :shrug: Whatever the effect is, it's probably not as significant as the overall tint, generally speaking.

What I gathered from the article and from conversations here is that if I want to make detailed observations about what I am looking directly at, then I want the high density of red sensitive cones in the center of my eye to have some red light bouncing off of the object being viewed.

Right, and red light (preferably deep into the red range) has the additional benefit of sparing your rods for scotopic vision (i.e. super-low light vision), which is why amateur astronomers use it; we use our cones, too, for observing many objects, so the red light should be limited to the minimum brightness necessary for visual acuity for whatever we're doing.

If I want the maximum visual stimulation from the faintest light (detecting the presence of a distant object) then blue/green (teal) light should be the most effective. -More true for peripheral vision, in the extremes you'll have a relatively blind spot in your center of focus.

The sensitivity of the rods is in a bell-shaped curve that peaks near 500 nm, which by coincidence happens to be right around where most nebula emit their light. :) It also happens to fill a big gap in the sensitivity curves of the various cones, which or may not be a coincidence. And if that weren't enough, this is very near where white LEDs typically have a deep "valley" in their spectra (example taken from the CREE XP-G data sheet):

xpg.png


So relatively speaking (no absolutes because there are overlaps between these curves), white LEDs are good for preserving one's scotopic (rod) vision, among white light sources, but not so great at helping people see things at extremely low levels of illumination, all else being equal. By the way, many--though not all--high-CRI LEDs have greater output in this range of the spectrum (it's one reason their CRIs are higher than average).

So cool white might seem brighter, and actually allow you to detect objects further away, having more lumens devoted to the blue/green part of the spectrum.

Actually, cool white LEDs typically have even less output near the peak of the rod sensitivity curve. All they really have is more light concentrated into a rather narrow peak in the blue range near 450 nm. While this peak is within the rod sensitivity curve, it's more than halfway down in sensitivity at that point. Looking at the various XP-G spectra above, it seems that it's a wash between the tints as to which supports scotopic vision the best (per lumen). For comparison, here is one of the better high-CRI spectra I've seen with respect to this topic:

s42180.png


There is a substantial difference, numerically speaking, although the overall curve still looks similar with a big dip in the cyan range--it's the inherent nature of the pairing of a blue LED die with a phosphor or blend of phosphors, and getting more output in the cyan and red ranges is costly in terms of efficiency.

As for why cool white appears "brighter," I think that's more of a psychological than physiological issue--it's why TV screens often come from the factory with too much blue in the picture (makes them appear "brighter"), and some white clothing and even paper is dyed slightly blue, as well. Our regular (photopic) vision is actually more sensitive to other wavelengths, as this curve shows, so it's not because we're more sensitive to blue light or anything like that.

While warm white might seem dimmer, and actually allow you to make out more detail of what you are looking directly at... (part of the "lower lumens" of warm led output is due to their putting out light in the frequencies around red,

That last part might be true under dim illumination, but I think it's more of a matter of color contrast under most ordinary circumstances--this is because typical cool white LEDs are so deficient in red while others are not, although high-CRI cool white LEDs (a rare breed for some reason) do fine with color contrast. Interestingly, this is where high CRI really makes a big difference, whereas with neutral and warm white it barely makes any difference at all in ordinary use (i.e. the differences are usually subtle), yet hardly anybody makes flashlights with high-CRI cool white LEDs...puzzling.... :thinking::shrug::banghead:

while the lumens are biased twards blue due to our eye's sensitivity to blue/green.)

Well, lumens specifically are based on this curve (also referenced above), which is used to convert radiant flux (in watts) to luminous flux (in lumens). The scotopic curve is different, and I believe that it is not considered in this context. Also, while our rods may be most sensitive to blue/green (or cyan, as I call it) they're not the wavelengths that LEDs are good at emitting--in fact, there's a really deep and fairly wide "valley" right there, as mentioned earlier.

Also natural objects (rocks, bark, dirt, fur, feathers, etc.) Allegedly tend to reflect warm tones better than cool tones.

Generally true, although I think that even greens and blues show up better under neutral or even warm white tints because the balance between various wavelengths is more even, which improves color contrast. Cool white LEDs are sort of a special case because they put out so much blue in a narrow range of wavelengths, which to my eyes tends to overwhelm and wash out other colors, and often causes glare. Note again that high-CRI cool white LEDs do not exhibit this problem so much because at least they have more red output, which helps render "earthy" tones better.

For deliberately creating night blindness by bleaching out someone's rhodopsin (visual purple), the brightest teal light would do the most bleaching... So cool white blaster would be optimal as a defensive light, the green laser "dazzlers" even more so.

For white LEDs, it seems that high CRI would theoretically be better (as long as they have greater output in the cyan range, that is), all else being equal (which is rare in practice). That said, there may be other factors involved, so the only way to really know would be to experiment.
 
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calipsoii

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@GaAslamp

I don't know if I should be happy or depressed that I recognized that emitter simply by it's spectral chart. :shakehead
 

eh4

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GaAslamp, thanks for the great info!

Part of why I went ahead and said all that I did was in hopes that someone would come along with some high quality clarification.
I'm going to have to go over your post and links for a while now.
 

think2x

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I have a row of pines behind my yard and I remember comparing a Lumens Factory EO-M3T in a KT2 head to a MAGLITE XM-L build. The Lumens Factory lamp let me see through the trees easier than the 6500k XM-L so I will have to agree that high CRI is better for throw and flood. BTW: The best flooder I have had was one of Nailbenders HCRI Linger Specials behind a diffused lens.
 

degarb

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what little I know comes from discussions here regarding low level light and the significance of frequencies of light and the structure of the eye.
read this great article: http://stlplaces.com/night_vision_red_myth/ and see what you think about center focus visual acuity of the eye.

What I gathered from the article and from conversations here is that if I want to make detailed observations about what I am looking directly at, then I want the high density of red sensitive cones in the center of my eye to have some red light bouncing off of the object being viewed.

If I want the maximum visual stimulation from the faintest light (detecting the presence of a distant object) then blue/green (teal) light should be the most effective. -More true for peripheral vision, in the extremes you'll have a relatively blind spot in your center of focus.

So cool white might seem brighter, and actually allow you to detect objects further away, having more lumens devoted to the blue/green part of the spectrum.

While warm white might seem dimmer, and actually allow you to make out more detail of what you are looking directly at... (part of the "lower lumens" of warm led output is due to their putting out light in the frequencies around red, while the lumens are biased twards blue due to our eye's sensitivity to blue/green.)

Also natural objects (rocks, bark, dirt, fur, feathers, etc.) Allegedly tend to reflect warm tones better than cool tones.

If you are more interested in Being seen from a distance then cool white should be better, likewise if you just want to blind someone (and maybe yourself) then cool white should be better.

The article does a much better job of explaining, I've just processed it down for easy swallowing and at the same time probably reduced the quality of the information.


I haven't yet read article, but I like your explanation.

I was studying http://www.venturelighting.com/naturalwhite/naturalwhite_faqs.html They seem to counter many warm light lover arguments. But your post kinda ties it together.

I am also trying to get my head around how they differ night vision from day vision. A 200 lumen headlamp could give me day vision if I am working at arm length. While a 3,000 lumen street light at 100 foot distance would not be that bright in the dark.

There is no doubt, in real world, that a 5000k light will look brighter at same lumen/lux level than a 2700k light. I think vendors know neutral tints with higher lumen count tend to outsell warm tints. I have no opinion on ideal color, yet, other than it may be task specific. I suspect a spectrograph, would be useful.
 

degarb

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I haven't yet read article, but I like your explanation.


Now have read. Only 10 more re-reads to go.

I also drew that a flashlight hotspot of greater than 15 degree from center (30 degree) is pretty useless. Our greed wants more. And based on graph, a much narrower hotspot is fine. (Which is something any one who pickups a flashlight, at their first time, knows.) Though, I will point out, vision in each eye is round, but stereo optic vision is oval.
 
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