Are my batteries dangerous?

[Dazed]

I see a lot of talk here about exploding li-ion cells.

I have ordered a number of Ultrafire 18650 protected li-ion cells, a few KD 16340/RC123 protected li-ion cells and a couple of unprotected LIR RCR123A li-ion cells from KD. I have a cheap charger from DX for the 18650's and a cheap KD charger for the 123's.

Should I worry? Is there really a chance of them blowing up? What can I do to prevent it?

I'll be using the 18650's in my UltraFire WF-501B and my MTE SSC P7 light and the 16340's in my Fenix T1 and my UltraFire WF-606A. (Both 2xCR123)


If there actually is a probable chance of an accident with these batteries, I'll get CR123 primaries instead, but I don't know what to do about the 18650's.

 

[mdocod]

~95% of reported lithium cell explosions come from CR123 primary cells. About 80% of those reports come from cells made in china.

The remaining ~5% of reported explosions come from LiCo cells(that's what you own, and what most of us are referring to if we say "Li-Ion" without affixing a chemistry), with about an even mix of ~2.5% caused by user error, with the other 2.5% simply being cheap crap from DX. (hint hint).

Owning a bunch of unprotected chinese made "ultrafire/superfire/sooperdooperfire" cells is a great way to improve your odds of seeing a full blown metal fire.

Is there a chance of you having an event? Your chances are higher than the average li-ion user here for a combination of reasons.

You shouldn't own unprotected LiCo cells if you are asking this question in the first place. Please don't take this the wrong way.... It's actually very unfortunate, but the way the industry works, with the ability of consumers to order things from china without understanding what those products are, is dangerous. I'd like to see a "test" you have to take on those websites to be "cleared" to buy them. They have no liability there if you burn your house down, so they don't care....

Eric

 

[Dazed]

My 18650's are protected 2.7/4.2 volt discharge/charge, and my KD 16340's are also protected. Don't know the voltages, but KD says they are protected from overcharging, over-discharging and shorting. I only own two unprotected cells, and that's the LIR cells from KD. I can easily get rid of those.

My primaries that I've used until now are mostly Duracell.

Will I be reasonably safe with only protected cells, even though they are from the chinese webshops?

What cells (18650 and 16340) and charger are recommended for the absolutely safest way of running 2xCR123 and 1x18650 flashlights?

 

[mdocod]

Yea, just make sure your charger is terminating at 4.20V, try not to run the light all the way down to the point that the PCB (protection) shuts off the light. You should be ok. Owning a DMM is never a bad idea so you can test cell voltage and behaviors and weed out under-performing cells. The danger of an issue cropping up becomes higher as the cells age, and there have been a number of reports of cells coming from DX/KD that exhibited the behavior of an "aged" cell right out of the package.

4.20V is full charged, 3.6V is basically dead (open circuit readings). Making sure the cells can take a charge to ~4.10-4.20V, and hold near there after being rested (after charging) is the easiest way to determine the health of a cell. If it drops more than ~0.15V after being rested, then it's on it's way out.

You can use the unprotected cells if you are diligent and own a multi-meter. You need to check cell voltage before they go on the charger each time to make sure they haven't been over-discharged (<3V is bad). Repeated over-discharging to <3V will increase the rate of internal oxidation, which increases the odds of an explosion during charging.

---------------------------

The standard recommendation for the safest LiCo cells for use in flashlights is going to be AW, Pila, and Wolf-Eyes brand cells. Most of us use AW and they are good quality cells.

Most recommended charger is the Pila IBC, it seems to be one of the very few loose cell li-ion chargers on the market that actually uses the proper charging algorithm.

The DSD isn't too bad, right price, painfully slow charging rate, usually doesn't overcharge. It will sometimes climb a few hundredths over 4.20V during charging, with the cell falling to under 4.20V when it terminates. Not terrible.

A number of the loose-cell li-ion chargers out there use a Constant Current only charging method, which can bring cell voltage up to around 4.30V or higher on small cells during charging, which then settles to ~4.20V or less after the charge is complete. This is not ideal (wears out cells faster), but does work.

Some cheaper chargers have a habit of continuing to trickle charge the cells after the charge has supposedly "terminated." This is bad for li-ion cells.

Eric

 

[Mr Happy]

Will I be reasonably safe with only protected cells, even though they are from the chinese webshops?

There are certain guidelines you could follow, such as:

• Own a multimeter and check the voltage before and after charging
• Remove cells from the charger as soon as they are finished
• Don't charge cells unattended
• Don't charge cells in a place where an unexpected fire could be hazardous, such as indoors near combustible materials
• Dispose of cells when they no longer perform well

This will not completely eliminate the risk, but it will reduce it to a reasonable minimum.

 

[Dazed]

Thanks. I'll be sure to get my DMM out when charging cells.

Strange that a RCR123 is "dead" at 3.6V when primary CR123's are 3.0V, but I trust that you're right.

I'll just have to find out at what runtime my lights have brought the voltage down to a little above 3V, then?

I just hope my 2x123 lights (Fenix T1 and Ultrafire WF606A) can handle the extra voltage from rechargable 123's.

 

[mdocod]

Most 2xCR123 LED lights can handle 2x3.7V cells just fine, The T1 is ADVERTISED as being compatible with them on most of their resellers websites.

There is no such thing as a SureFire WF606A.

The Ultrafire WF606A is a 1xCR2 or 2xAA light from what I can tell, and it will fry if you were to somehow figure out a way to get 2 3.7V cells into it. (unless there is another WF606A out there that is different, Ultrafire is well known for having meaningless product identification "numbers/names" that often overlap and get re-used and show up on the wrong flashlights all the time. )

 

[Dazed]

Ah. Of course I mean Ultrafire. "Surefire" must have been wishful thinking. Of course my WF606A runs on CR2 or AA's. It's got Energizer Lithium AA primaries in it, and should be pretty safe, right? A little "brainfart" on my part there. Sorry.

As it turns out, I only have theT1 that needs to run on CR123's, and 18650's are a little safer, right?

 

[mdocod]

The T1 can be run on either 2xCR123s or 2x3.7V RCR123s, it will not fit an 18650 and I don't think it will support the input voltage of a single li-ion anyways (low battery warning system?). So a 17670 would likely fit but not work correctly.

I would rate quality protected RCR123s that are used properly to be safer than CR123 primary cells in general.

--------------------

Energizer lithium AA cells have a great track record of safety, but the chinese made rip-offs of AA size 1.5V lithium cells do not.

 

[Nite]

Man MDOCOD if all our PM sessions were in threads itd be soo cool

too bad there were server problems back when I first joined.

Alot of educational stuff in those conversations.


like this thread

 

[hank]

> chinese made rip-offs of AA size 1.5V lithium cells

Uhoh - pointer please, where can I read up on this? 2-cell flashlight problem?
Is that primary cells? AAAs also?

 

[mdocod]

> chinese made rip-offs of AA size 1.5V lithium cells

Uhoh - pointer please, where can I read up on this? 2-cell flashlight problem?
Is that primary cells? AAAs also?

I don't really understand what you are asking....

The problem is in the quality control of off-brand AA 1.5V lithium cells. Right now, Energizer has the patent on this technology, but that only carries water here in the states, so there are numerous places on the internet that you can buy 1.5V lithium AA cells made in china to lesser standards (for example, Nuon). Their performance isn't usually as good as the energizers, and they exhibit strange behavior sometimes. There have been reports of some of the off-branders exploding and stuff.

Eric

 

[Dazed]

OK. Thanks a lot for your help! (That goes for Mr. Happy too.)

 

[Dazed]

If i wanted to get "safe chemistry" batteries instead; (Both 18650 and 16340) what should i choose? LiFePO4? Is the drop in runtime very drastic? What alternatives are there? "Eneloop"?

Are there NiMH cells in these form factors around?

It'd be great with some recommendations on types and where to get them. (I need them shipped to Norway, but I can ask the sellers abot that myself, of course.)

Is this good?

http://www.batteryjunction.com/2rc375reliba.html

Thanks again!

 

[HKJ]

If i wanted to get "safe chemistry" batteries instead; (Both 18650 and 16340) what should i choose? LiFePO4? Is the drop in runtime very drastic? What alternatives are there? "Eneloop"?

Are there NiMH cells in these form factors around?

It'd be great with some recommendations on types and where to get them. (I need them shipped to Norway, but I can ask the sellers abot that myself, of course.)

LiFePO4 are safe but only 3.2 volt and very low capacity, another one is the new IMR batteries, they are 3.7 volt but also low capacity.

Personally I uses pcb-protected LiIon batteries from AW, but then I am also unsafe enough to use a laptop computer (They also has LiIon batteries).

 

[mdocod]

I wouldn't bother using LiFeP04 cells unless you have a specific need to do so for voltage or current requirements, they have about 1/3rd the energy density of LiCo cells, so the runtime hit is substantial.

For your T1, use 3.7V protected AW RCR123s cells, for your P7 light, again, AW protected 3.7V 18650 cells are going to be fine, for your 606A, you need to keep the input voltage around 3V or less, so just use a pair of NIMH rechargeable AA cells in there (Or E2 lithiums from energizer as primary cell alternatives), or a primary CR2.

Eric

If i wanted to get "safe chemistry" batteries instead; (Both 18650 and 16340) what should i choose? LiFePO4? Is the drop in runtime very drastic? What alternatives are there? "Eneloop"?

Are there NiMH cells in these form factors around?

It'd be great with some recommendations on types and where to get them. (I need them shipped to Norway, but I can ask the sellers abot that myself, of course.)

Is this good?

http://www.batteryjunction.com/2rc375reliba.html

Thanks again!