Are Surefire LED lights old technology ?

[LED61]

Don´t get me wrong, I am a big surefire fan here. Some of their incandescent lights are eternal and will be forever treasured in my arsenal. The E2E, Aviator, and M6 certainly qualify.

Having said that though, I´ve sold off my U2 and kept my Kroma instead. performance on high beam is too close to keep both. What I´m saying is I feel they have fell so far behind in lumen output on most of their nice quality LED lights. The question begs to be answered--are their LED lights based on old technology ? why have they not increased the output of their LED lights using the new more efficient emitters ? If the answer is they have on some models to me that´s a drop in the bucket for a company at the cutting edge of technology.

 

[Steve Curtis]

Funny you should post this as I was thinking the same thing last night while looking at a U2 Ultra.

Im sure they are great and well upto the usual SF standards of build but the outputs/ runtimes do look a little low compared to the new new stuff on the market.

I guess they give "actual" power instead of inflated power so maybe we have just been suckered by the marketing hype of todays "fashion" flashlights :candle:

 

[LK5GB7]

they HAVE to use old technology! if they decided to use newer stuff, their lights would cost a bazillion times more than they do already!

:wave:

 

[Dinan]

Well the U2, L4, and L2 are still using a Lux V. Their newest LED lights (E1L, E2L, L1) are using cree LED's and the 6PL/G2L are using ssc's I think. Right now the new L1 is my new favorite light... it's such a pocket monster.

 

[KeyGrip]

they HAVE to use old technology! if they decided to use newer stuff, their lights would cost a bazillion times more than they do already!

There wasn't much of a cost increase for the updated E1L/E2L/L1 models, was there? They're probably in the process of updating the high power models right now. I just wish they'd tell us more about what they're doing.

 

[Size15's]

There wasn't much of a cost increase for the updated E1L/E2L/L1 models, was there? They're probably in the process of updating the high power models right now. I just wish they'd tell us more about what they're doing.

There was no price increase when SureFire updated their E1L/E2L/L1.
The X300 that is replacing the X200A/X200B is a lower price than the X200B.

CPF members were once quite privileged with SureFire inside information. However, over the years CPF members have forced SureFire to withdraw from this special relationship. CPF'ers seldom find out what SureFire is doing with the latest technology with the result that only the retail line of products is shared. From this perspective CPF members are treated no differently than any other member of the public. Given that SureFire is one of the most important brands in a Flashaholic's world - the relationship generated is perversely hostile. That's my impression (FWIW)

Al

 

[LED61]

I realize we are a demanding bunch, but what exactly do you imply by saying CPF´rs have "forced" Surefire to withdraw with sharing future development plans ? IIRC, the most recent gathering at shot show was very friendly between PK and CPF´rs, too bad I could not make it.

 

[woodrow]

I am really looking forward to some high output new tech lights from SF. (not to mention streamlight, pelican and UK) But in the mean time I do not worry about it. There is Soooo much other cool new stuff to buy that I am still completely happy.

 

[greenLED]

I realize we are a demanding bunch, but what exactly do you imply by saying CPF´rs have "forced" Surefire to withdraw with sharing future development plans ? IIRC, the most recent gathering at shot show was very friendly between PK and CPF´rs, too bad I could not make it.

That's a once in a year event (and an awesome one to attend), but there was a lot more being shared with CPF a couple of years ago.

 

[kelmo]

Old or not, my L2 is still one cool light!

 

[planex]

The U2 and Kroma as well as the other lux V lights need to be upgraded. They do their jobs well, but the runtime is just not on par with the latest emitters. The L1 cree and E2L cree are great examples of upgraded lights with long runtimes. Look at the Kroma. 50 lumens on high for 1.5 hours. My E2L puts out 45 lumens for 9 hours! Amazing. I have no doubt that we will see Surefire upgrade their other lights by sometime next year. I know I will not be buying any more of their "older emitter" lights until they do upgrade them.

 

[Patriot]

There was no price increase when SureFire updated their E1L/E2L/L1.
The X300 that is replacing the X200A/X200B is a lower price than the X200B.

CPF members were once quite privileged with SureFire inside information. However, over the years CPF members have forced SureFire to withdraw from this special relationship. CPF'ers seldom find out what SureFire is doing with the latest technology with the result that only the retail line of products is shared. From this perspective CPF members are treated no differently than any other member of the public. Given that SureFire is one of the most important brands in a Flashaholic's world - the relationship generated is perversely hostile. That's my impression (FWIW)

Al

I'm trying to understand. You're saying that surefire doesn't talk to CPFers anymore because some are "perversely hostile?" Hmmm.

Gosh, I've only been visiting CPF for about a year and it still seems like surefire is the preferred factory brand. I don't see more hostility to the brand as compared to others. For every complaint there is still plenty of SF praise. I speculate that they're just too big and too busy for a representative put in hours on-line with CPFers...that's all. These types of companies utilize every possible minute of the day focusing on production and profits. Nothing wrong with that of course. It's just another professional business and that's how they operate these days.

Any chance that they're just to busy?

 

[Size15's]

I'm trying to understand. You're saying that surefire doesn't talk to CPFers anymore because some are "perversely hostile?" Hmmm.

Any chance that they're just to busy?

I think this is very much the case - if we want SureFire employees to talk to us we need to make CPF a place they feel welcome, feel comfortable and a place worth their while spending time (whilst being paid by SureFire) to hangout and communicate with us. SureFire has tried to engage with CPF on several occasions other than PK. All attempts at SureFire 'the business' doing so have failed. PK is a special case in so many ways.

I don't think SureFire is alone with regards to CPFers not making flashlight manufacturers welcome and hosting them in a positive conducive atmosphere, and this is one of the reasons why other big-name flashlight companies keep a low profile. Because at the end of the day these companies don't need to interact with us - they can gain what they need from us covertly. We aren't a big enough market to even have assigned sales reps (afaik).

Al

 

[lightemup]

I understand what you mean Al, it is a bit of a shame I found a thread where Stuart got a bit of a hammering.

As far as "Are Surefire LED lights old technology?" Take a look at Maglite and Streamlight, two manufacturers that are probably more apt to be used as comparison. IMHO Surefire is, and always has been on the cutting edge. Of course opinions will vary on this issue...

As far as why they don't adopt the new rebels / crees right as they come out at least for me is a testament to Surefire's commitment to provide reliable solutions. In Defence Circles it can take up to several years for new technology to filter through as there are a number of other factors involved other than just something is the latest and greatest.

I have yet to see a production light that is the same quality as Surefires. When that day comes, i'll need help because i'll have to buy them too!

 

[lightemup]

My other half just weighed in on the issue, she was looking over my shoulder when I posted. Her response:

"I am not even into any of this stuff, but if i'm in the army and I want a gun or torch I want to know that it has been thoroughly tested before I buy it, not find out about its issues when i'm in the field with it with Osama on my *** "

I've got to say, I think from that comment I was just green lighted to sneak the x300 in the house (she wasn't as amused with that but I won't convey her message )

 

[BSCOTT1504]

I suppose that if high output and long runtime are your main criteria for a light, then maybe some Surefires are outdated...

I seldom need more than 100 lumens in day to day use...

I rarely use my U2 on high, so runtime is not a problem...

Same thing with my L1's...

I think I'll keep my technologically challenged Surefires...

 

[Supernam]

Ok, I see both sides of the argument and here's my stance. Surefire makes high QUALITY lights. However their current technology IS outdated with the release of the Cree/Seoul emitters as well as NIMH and LiIon batteries. They have awesome machining, anodizing, beam shape, and hardware. BUT, they need to swap in Crees or Seouls into ALL of their LED lights. Additionally, they MUST upgrade their rechargeable line with NIMH cells.

Some may argue that this would cost a fortune, but the last time I checked a SSC emitter was less than $15. It doesn't cost any more to tweak the driver, nor does it cost more to use a reflector with a different profile. Really, what is the big deal with swapping in a SSC into the L4, U2, Kroma, and L7?

The NiMH batteries would cost more, but it's a worth while upgrade considering that they would be able to market a longer runtime. I don't even remember the last time I used NiCd in ANYTHING.

Also, I understand that SF makes money from their CR123 batteries and that this may be the reason why their rechargeable line is not as strong. However, I think that they are losing out to Streamlight because they do not have externally rechargeable lights. So many law enforcement officers have streamlights because they are externally rechargeable.

 

[elgarak]

Ok, I see both sides of the argument and here's my stance. Surefire makes high QUALITY lights. However their current technology IS outdated with the release of the Cree/Seoul emitters as well as NIMH and LiIon batteries. They have awesome machining, anodizing, beam shape, and hardware. BUT, they need to swap in Crees or Seouls into ALL of their LED lights. Additionally, they MUST upgrade their rechargeable line with NIMH cells.

Some may argue that this would cost a fortune, but the last time I checked a SSC emitter was less than $15. It doesn't cost any more to tweak the driver, nor does it cost more to use a reflector with a different profile. Really, what is the big deal with swapping in a SSC into the L4, U2, Kroma, and L7?

The NiMH batteries would cost more, but it's a worth while upgrade considering that they would be able to market a longer runtime. I don't even remember the last time I used NiCd in ANYTHING.

Also, I understand that SF makes money from their CR123 batteries and that this may be the reason why their rechargeable line is not as strong. However, I think that they are losing out to Streamlight because they do not have externally rechargeable lights. So many law enforcement officers have streamlights because they are externally rechargeable.

I fear that the attitude expressed in this post is what drove SF people away. Since SureFire MUST not do anything of the sort; they can and should do whatever they think is reasonable for their business, for whatever reasons, which may not be completely obvious to us outsiders.

Frankly, I am surprised how fast SF did incorporate 'new', that is, improved, LED technology into new products, considering how much R&D they put into their lights. As opposed to other manufacturers, they do not simply put a new emitter into an old design.

My first CREE'ed light was the SF L1; and I do not regret anything that I waited and did not waste money on the first piece coming out for a light that I eventually would never really use.

 

[Patriot]

Frankly, I am surprised how fast SF did incorporate 'new', that is, improved, LED technology into new products, considering how much R&D they put into their lights. As opposed to other manufacturers, they do not simply put a new emitter into an old design.

With much of the R&D being done by the LED manufacturers I'm not all that sure the "switchover" was because of extended laboratory testing. I believe it has more to do with planing, parts logistics, marketing, and assembly processes. I can run hot or cold sometimes with Surefire, but overall I know that they're great lights. Just like any rapidly growing, successful business they're being flexed to the limit all of the time with their growth. No company is perfect and right now they're processes don't allow them to change as rapidly as some other manufacturers. I really hope that they become the "first to" company again, but for now well have to just settle for solid reliable lights....how sad <(sarcastic)

 

[Size15's]

SureFire has been deeply involved with LED manufacturers regarding the development of LEDs themselves. What little CPFers do get to find out from PK's parties at SHOT Shows tells us that SureFire are working extremely closely with LED manufacturers in R&D and proto-typing.

SureFire do not offer SF123A batteries in order to make money from them. I can state this because I have talked with people at SureFire responsible for bringing them to market at the time. SureFire sell them at cost, adding only what it costs to transport them from the American battery manufacturer, and have Americans repackage them from the trays (of 400) into the boxes and clamshells etc. If you want to buy a whole tray (SF400BULK) or pallet of trays from SureFire they do not charge for the repackaging.
The concept of the SF123A battery is to allow SureFire users to make better, more cost-effective use of the SureFire products they have invested in, and do so using American-made (less dangerous) high quality batteries.

And btw, yes, it's CPFers demanding this and that from SureFire - constantly applying their own values to SureFire in their demands and expectations for how SureFire should operate that contributes to the poor atmosphere experienced by SureFire employees when they openly visit CPF.

We are not a key, important, critical or economic market for many big-brand flashlight manufacturers, although we often act as though we are.

Al