are they really going to drill in Alaska?

ikendu

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Iowa
[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:Enough with the conspiracy theories. The auto industry is brutally competitive. If any company had a significant advantage over another, they would certainly use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I think I have to agree with that. There are enough auto companies world wide that want a piece of the U.S. market that if they could offer a 100 mpg carburater...they would.
 

jtr1962

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[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Where can I get one of those SUV's with a 200mph top speed?


[/ QUOTE ]
I dread to think how much power something like that would need. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I think the point Cmmndo85 is making is engines are less efficient than they can be because vehicles are poorly designed. If you design a vehicle which doesn't have a ridiculous top speed or acceleration, and uses less power the rest of the time, you can operate the engine in it's peak efficiency range more often. No sane driving cycle requires you to get to 60 in less than 20 seconds or to reach 150 mph speeds. Most people don't need to tow 10,000 pounds, drive up the side of a building, or cruise along a glacier either. It's bad enough that many of today's vehicles are grossly overpowered and overweight. Even worse is that we seemingly forgot aerodynamics almost overnight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif If you're going to make a huge vehicle like an SUV, at least make the damned thing streamlined instead of like a box. That wastes so much power that otherwise doesn't have to be used just to create air turbulence. Slothful doesn't even begin to describe many of today's vehicles. Oil has so many better uses than just burning it for power, especially with all the wasted oil nowadays because of poor vehicle design.
 

rodfran

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I don't about any American cars having a fuel mpg advantage over one another. But it sounds like Toyota(Prius) and VW (diesel TDI) have a significant fuel mpg advantage over American cars. We have CPF members that have stated on the alt. fuel thread that they are getting actual(real world not EPA estimates)figures of 45-50 mpg.

If anyone owns an American car that gets 45-50 mpg, I would like to hear about it.
 

turbodog

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[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Where can I get one of those SUV's with a 200mph top speed?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

Mark

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean yours doesn't hit 200? What kind of wimpy suv you got? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

Cmmndo85

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I just said engines /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But I am sure somewhere they have done it.
 

Minjin

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[ QUOTE ]
jtr1962 said:
No sane driving cycle requires you to get to 60 in less than 20 seconds or to reach 150 mph speeds. Most people don't need to tow 10,000 pounds

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never merged onto a highway before, have you? And don't give me some excuse that properly designed on-ramps give you lots of space to get up to speed, because in the real world, not all roads are perfectly designed. As for towing capacity, most of my friends have hobbies that require the use of trucks and trailers (to haul the toys around). Guess what, those toys aren't particularly gas efficient either. But here again is something that you don't need to do (or like to do) so you'd rather take it away from everyone else.

They make cars for people like you. And they make cars for people like me. Whats so hard about leaving it at that?

Mark
 

turbodog

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[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
[ QUOTE ]
jtr1962 said:
No sane driving cycle requires you to get to 60 in less than 20 seconds or to reach 150 mph speeds. Most people don't need to tow 10,000 pounds

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never merged onto a highway before, have you? And don't give me some excuse that properly designed on-ramps give you lots of space to get up to speed, because in the real world, not all roads are perfectly designed. As for towing capacity, most of my friends have hobbies that require the use of trucks and trailers (to haul the toys around). Guess what, those toys aren't particularly gas efficient either. But here again is something that you don't need to do (or like to do) so you'd rather take it away from everyone else.

They make cars for people like you. And they make cars for people like me. Whats so hard about leaving it at that?

Mark

[/ QUOTE ]

My brother!
 

jtr1962

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Minjin, my point is that lots of people have SUVs but use them no differently than cars. Seriously, do people need an Explorer to buy groceries? That's my beef here. If you really need to tow a trailer on a daily basis or whatever, fine. That's something that maybe 0.1% of everybody does. And BTW, if towing trailers is a hobby that you or your friends only do once in a while, doesn't having a more sensible car for everyday driving and renting the SUV for the few times a year you need it make more sense? The point is, I hate waste. And yes, lots of things I might like to do but can't do because they affect others so I have no problems taking away someone's "toys" if they affect me. Maybe that's the problem with our country nowadays. Leaders are afraid to tell people no even when what they're doing is harmful. Conservation isn't a dirty word like everyone nowadays seems to think it is. One day when the sh*t hits the fan as fuel prices keep climbing I'll be laughing at everyone who thought waste was OK. I'll just happily continue to walk or bike like I always did. By then my house will be on solar so higher heating oil and electricity won't affect me. I'll enjoy seeing everyone's expensive "toys" sitting idle for lack of cheap fuel while I continue doing what I've always done with a smug little grin on my face.

As for the merging thing, I mentioned in another thread about accidently getting on the highway with my bicycle. Believe it or not, since I caught the draft of a vehicle to break the wind for me I had no trouble keeping up with traffic for the one exit I was on. This was on a crowded highway with short on ramps and traffic speeds in the 55 to 70 mph range. I hit the ramp at about 30. Once I realized that I was on a highway I was able to keep right on the tail of the guy in front of me all the way to 58 mph. Now he or she easily had the power to leave me in the dust but obviously they saw no need to use it to enter a crowded highway. Of course, I immediately got off at the next exit. Believe me, none of this was intentional but stopping in the on ramp and trying to get off the highway would have been 100 times more dangerous. And I find I keep up just fine with normal city traffic without depending on other vehicles to break the wind for me. This is with a vehicle with a power to weight ratio of 10HP per ton at best.

It's not about properly designed on ramps as you say. It's more about carrying your speed through from the local streets to the highway. I've ridden in the car with my mom many times and have yet to see her get to 60 in anything less than about 25 seconds, and no, she doesn't impede traffic either. The situation of coming to a dead stop at the beginning of a short on ramp is one of the best examples of poor driving habits I can think of. Even on crowded NYC highways you usually very rarely don't have an opening. Please don't tell me that you can't find such openings in abundance on the much less traveled highways in PA. It was even mentioned in the alternative vehicle thread by a few people how most drivers never use the big engines they pay extra to lug around. Poor drivers who don't anticipate need to start and stop suddenly, and incidentally cause the most accidents. Another reason I don't like overpowered vehicles besides the fact that they waste fuel is because you can rapidly reach speeds which are unsafe for the conditions. At least if you need to hold the pedal down for 30 seconds to get to 80 mph there's little chance of reaching those kinds of speeds on local streets with stoplights. Yes, I see idiots with big engines reaching speeds like that or more on local streets posted for 30 mph just because they can. Truth be told, if I was in charge I'd have a ten year program to automate the driving process and take the driver out of the loop entirely. It would save lives, fuel, and increase productivity. Too many people nowadays drive like idiots. I'd say overpowered cars are a big reason why.

And no, they don't make cars for a lot of people like me. I would want a one or two passenger EV provided it was classified so I didn't have to have mandatory insurance on it. If not, I'd rather not even own a car. It's a huge expense with little benefit for someone like me. However, lots of city dwellers would want something like I mentioned, or maybe a larger EV if they have a family. All we get are commercials for SUVs or sedans with monster engines. Detroit should bow its head in shame. We can't even get a sensible vehicle even if we wanted one. The Prius isn't bad, but it's one choice. Even here, economy in the mid 40s is nothing steller when we can do better than 100. And if you would rather do "home refueling" via the grid you have no choices at all. It seems you can get what you want, but I can't get want I might want.

I'm wondering if I should even bother spending the time writing these kinds of posts any more. It seems sometimes like I'm talking to the wall. You don't care about conservation, fine. You have the right. Just don't come crying to people like me to fix everything in five or ten years as our archaic fossil fuel based economy starts to collapse. People like me are tired of cleaning up everyone else's mess.
 

turbodog

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People usually come crying to the people that are willing and able to spend $ to fix their problems. So that pretty much leaves you out on all counts.

I'd say yes, that you're talking to the wall. You're so out of the loop that I have an extremely hard time taking anything you say with respect. No car, no car insurance, no health insurance, no wife, no kids, no house, city dweller, no sunshine, no exhaust fumes.

If you *really* want to try and help matters, you've got to learn to work for realistic and achievable goals.

What you don't want to admit is that you desperately need me. Yes, me, and others like me. Why? The ONLY way ANYONE'S gonna make these new vehicles is if someone will buy them. Well bubba, that's all these suburbanites you so happyily are kicking in the balz, repeatedly. I'm tired of it, and I'm pretty sure other are also.

At least I can respect Darell. He's managed to work EV and RE into a real-life enviroment.

So, if you wanna continue in a co-operative manner I can work with that. If all I'm going to get back is a shrill scream of offenses, save your breath.

Anyone like my new sig? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

Minjin

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jtr1962,

I have a new crusade for you if you tire of this one. You're so hung up on conservation and making sure that people don't overconsume (even if they want to and can afford it), how about you start worrying about all the fat people? Yes, anyone who is over the ideal weight is consuming too many resourses. Eating too much food, causing them to need larger clothes that are shipped from china, and all of them (and their purchases) being hauled around by those infernal combustion engined transportation devices. So not only is this form of excess increasing our dependence on foreign oil (I know you guys love that phrase), but its also helping to cripple our health care system. Double wammy...

I'd think that, based on what you have stated, that overweight people would be your sworn enemies. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif

Mark
 

jtr1962

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turbodog, I just need to point out that you started the negative tone in the alternative vehicle thread when you told me I should move, and then carried it over to this one. I was discussing this stuff in a fairly rational manner up until that time. You didn't seem to like it when I told you maybe you should move to the city instead. I didn't expect you would, but I did that to make you realize how offensive I found that comment. You're happy with your lifestyle, I'm happy with mine. Let's leave it at that since it doesn't affect the discussion of this topic.

You talk about not taking me seriously. Fine, don't. I do see others in this thread who have agreed with a lot of what I wrote. Frankly, I can't take a lot of what you have to say on this subject seriously either because all you're doing is sprouting inflammatory one liners at anyone's opinion with whom you disagree, instead of maybe using reason and logic to support your view. I can respect someone who disagrees with me and can support their view with facts. I can't respect someone who dismisses what I say out of hand by saying I'm out of the loop because of "No car, no car insurance, no health insurance, no wife, no kids, no house, city dweller, no sunshine, no exhaust fumes". I wasn't aware that I needed any of these qualifications to be able to talk about conservation, alternative energy, or drilling in Alaska.

I also suggest you get some of your facts straight. Just because I point out the waste of the "suburban" lifestyle doesn't mean I'm attacking you personally. You didn't create the policy which resulted in the suburbanization of America. That was the mistake, and it is those policy makers I attack for their short sightedness, not you for living in the suburbs. I don't expect that you or the majority of Americans would know any better because you weren't told a lot of the negatives of suburbanization that I mentioned. You don't like or believe the message, that's fine. It's your perogative. Just don't kill the messenger.

And I'll fill you in on another little secret. I really don't care if you "suburbanites" adopt cleaner vehicles or not. I really don't. There's enough city dwellers in this country so that if several large cities like New York mandated zero emission vehicles there would be a large enough market to make producing them worthwhile irrespective of what everyone else continues to drive. So long as we get EVs in the city I'll be a happy camper. If you want to continue to use SUVs where you are I don't care. I'm too far away to be affected by it. FYI, New York City alone is responsible for about 15% of the economic activity in the US. We can and do shape policy by what goes on here yet you act as if we don't matter much in the scheme of things because a lot of us take the subway instead of drive, or maybe live in apartments instead of homes. You seem to have incorrect preconceptions of what life is like in our large cities. Just out of curiosity, have you ever lived in a big city for any length of time? I did live in a suburb for my first three semesters in college so I can say I tried it and didn't like it.

If you want to continue this by PM be my guest.
 

jtr1962

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[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
jtr1962,

I have a new crusade for you if you tire of this one. You're so hung up on conservation and making sure that people don't overconsume (even if they want to and can afford it), how about you start worrying about all the fat people?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they cost a lot more in health care than they do in fuel. And yes, medical entitlements are the fastest growing part of government spending. All joking aside, something does have to be done. However, I'll leave the crusade against obesity to others.
 

Wits' End

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In high school I wrote a paper with the premise that we didn't have an energy crisis we have an oil crisis. It was obvious to this 17 year old that we need to get the research done and exploit the renewable energies that are harvestable now with today's technology.

I wrote that in 1977. I think we are on the other side of 2000 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif . Why didn't anyone listen to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif (laughing at my 'advanced' thinking not the situation we are in)
 

greenLED

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Since we've discussed resource use lately, I thought this might contribute to the discussion: The Millenium Ecosystem Assessment

I have not read it yet, but there are links on the website to download the document, as well as summaries for policy makers, and "popularized" summaries too.
 

NeonLights

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Ohio
Re: fuel efficient American cars

[ QUOTE ]
rodfran said:
If anyone owns an American car that gets 45-50 mpg, I would like to hear about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

With moderately careful driving I was able to get 40 mpg with mixed city/highway driving on several occasions in my 1996 Dodge Neon (built in Illinois). That was with the "performance" oriented DOHC engine and transmission. If I had bought a car with the SOHC engine (rated 30 hp less) and its better geared (for mpg) teansmission, I'm sure I would have been able to exceed 40 mpg rather easily.

With a few relatively simple and cheap modifications, 44-46 mpg would be easily attainable in a 1995-99 Neon. I've thought about buying another Neon (I currently have two already) and modifying it for maximum fuel efficiency, but even buying a cheap older one wouldn't make economic sense for me. It would take at least 2-3 years to recoup the money spent on the car in gas savings. I still have my 1996 DOHC Neon, but it has been since modified for more power, not better gas mileage. I still get around 30-32 mpg with it, albeit on the more expensive 93 octane gas it has to have.

I have never lived in the suburbs. I've spent three years (of my 35 years I've been on this earth) living in a large city, another 7-8 years living in a small town, and the rest of my life living out in the country, many miles away from the nearest city. My wife and I currently own five cars, and I race one of them on the weekends. Racing takes a lot of fuel, much more so than normal driving. If gas continues to rise on cost, I'll just have to put a larger percentage of my income into my hobby. It's a sacrifice I'll have to make (in money, not in gas).

-Keith
 

greenLED

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Re: fuel efficient American cars

Hey Keith, could you point out links to these modifications? Can they be done (cheaply?) on a 96 Mazda 626. I already get over 30 mpg (city), but more wouldn't hurt.
 

NeonLights

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Re: fuel efficient American cars

I have no links off the top of my head, but on many different car forums there are specific ideas for certain cars as well as general ideas that will work for most/all cars. Some of the general things I've done (or would do) to increase gas mileage are:

-Running narrower lighter tires with a high treadwear rating (above 400-500) and pump them up around 10 psi higher than the factory recommendation. I currently use 195/60-14 tires on my Neon but will be switching to lighter narrower 175/70-14 tires later this year. Tirerack.com lists specs for all of their tires including diameter (best to keep it close to stock) and weight. Using lighter than factory wheels is beneficial too, if economically feasibe (I got a set of alloy wheels for $100 on ebay that weigh almost 4 lbs less each than my stock wheels).

-Weight reduction. The curb weight on my Neon was 2500 lbs when it was new and in stock condition. Over the years I've been doing some weight reduction here and there, and the car is now around 2200-2250 lbs and will be about 50 lbs lighter by this summer. My car no longer has air conditioning or power steering, and I don't miss either one on my car. A lighter car will take less power to move and get better mpg.

-Keep the car in a good state of tune, fresh plugs and plug wires, new (or clean) fuel and air filters, and use synthetic oil and other synthetic fluids wherever possible. Keep the fuel injectors clean and in good condition as well.

-On many cars there are modifications that can be done to the engine to increase both power and gas mileage, but some people find the additional horsepower addicting and end up getting worse mpg enjoying the new-found power. Some of these modifications are a freer flowing air intake, exhaust header/s, underdrive pulleys, and freer flowing exhaust, but different cars respond differently to these modifications, so careful research is a must.

I'm currently trying to find a good balance of power and gas mileage on my Neon, and I am willing to sacrifice a little horsepower if I can get it back closer to 38-40 mpg.

-Keith
 
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