ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

[kromeke]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Addressing DonnyD (and indirectly, Ray_of_light):

Can H2O moisture exist within a lithium battery? I can understand the cells becoming assembled with some absorbed moisture, but wouldn't the H2O react out [with the metallic lithium] once the cell is crimped (and presumably "sealed") I put sealed in quotes, because there are many different levels of sealed. My educated guess is that the seal on a crimped (is there any other seal method on 123 cells) battery would consist of a polymer which is then crimped between the metal can and the metal top. This would act as an insulater to prevent short circuit. However, because you can smell a primary 123 cell, it obviously isn't a complete seal, I assume that the solvent used in the electrolyte is able to permeate this crimp seal. Hence the odor of CR123s.

It seems to me that any moisture that would be found in a primary lithium battery is going to react [with the lithium] upon manufacture, and the hydrogen gas from any reaction would permeate out the polymer crimp seal(assuming small quantities of H). Is this a safe assumption? Please Ray, can you elaborate on your battery chemistry knowledge? (I don't have a lot, I just have a little chemistry knowledge) I'm not trying to shoot anyone down here, I just want an explaination on how water can exist in a primary lithium battery. Any citations would be welcome.

 

[McGizmo]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

......
4. don't use primary lithium cells
5. use twisties (LOTC) instead of clickies hugely reduces accidental switch-on. also if internal failure is already occurring (no light). clickies will not indicate if it's actually off.

........

In regards to 4)

don't use any lights at all, regardless of chemistry, and the risk is greatly reduced!

In regards to 5)

if the cickie is in a LOTC configuration, it can be even more certain of an open circuit (light off) than a standard LOTC. Back off the clickie from contact with the battery tube and there is no way you can activate the clickie and close the circuit. Back off a LOTC but not enough and depresion of the button can close the circuit and if the batteries are headed in an event path, you will not know by test depressing the LOTC whether you have advanced it off far enough or not.

Plain and simple, IMHO, if the risk has not been mitigated to the point that the type of switch is no longer critical to a safety or risk reduction then the problem is still alive and on board. AD should be avoided for other known and understood reasons to be sure and is certainly a consideration still, at this stage in our understandings.

You have your list of preventative steps for risk reduction and they all seem sound to me. I am happy for you. I personally still feel safer with using SF CR123's than I do using Li-Ion cells and my flashlight usage and storage is much better served with the selection of primaries. These are my choices and I accept the risks; what ever they are and whether or not I am aware of them. I hope to learn more from the collective knowledge and experimentation going on here. It would really be great if a battery expert were to chime in but I am not holding my breath. :green:

 

[cy]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

it's simple enough to unscrew a clickie to prevent contact enirely. just like it's simple to back off LOTC to prevent marginal contact. but look at how many of us that never unscrew a clickie...

advantage in favor of LOTC (twistie) is clickies require ONE accidental push to switch on. VS twistie needs continous pressure to stay on. like carrying light in a backpack..

like you stated it's easy enough not to use lights at all. my mistake above for not pointing out that above list was only meant to point out. only have to avoid ONE factor to greatly reduce lithium failure.

if you go back on all events reported so far. items I listed are possible common elements of all documented lithium failures so far. this includes failures done on purpose by newbie.

if the cickie is in a LOTC configuration, it can be even more certain of an open circuit (light off) than a standard LOTC. Back off the clickie from contact with the battery tube and there is no way you can activate the clickie and close the circuit. Back off a LOTC but not enough and depresion of the button can close the circuit and if the batteries are headed in an event path, you will not know by test depressing the LOTC whether you have advanced it off far enough or not.

:

 

[Ray_of_Light]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I feel the need for some clarifications.

1. Water is the compound that, more easily, can pollute a lithium primary battery. Water is used in the production process of Mn02 (check freepatentsonline for some hints), and a lack of QC at this phase of the process will produce a form of hydrated Mn02. The timing or the temperature of the last phase of production process are very likely to be the problem.

2. The "polluted" MnO2 is not "wet" so to speak, but would not be in the anhydrous state it is required to be. Water will be eventually released when more enrgy will be present as heat.

3. Water may enter the battery after its production, due to a mechanichal stress, or defective crimp seal, or to a defective seal. A defective seal may also be a seal that has the wrong permeability specification.

4. The MnO2 is also a catalist to other chemical reactions. As an example, the presence of perchlorate or peroxyde pollutants in the electrolyte will transform a 123 into a pipe bomb device.

5. The MnO2 decomposes at a certain temperature. The final blast originating from a 123-explosion is due to the lithium reacting with the oxygen, plus the hydrogen that has eventually been released from the decomposition of the moisture.

6. I have noted that 123 batteries that are good candidates for an explosion start heating up after the 80% or more of the electrical energy has been released, even at 1 AMp discharge current. A simple temperature meter and a dummy load will spot the defective batteries.
This, anyway, is a destructive test, in the sense that you can spot the defective battery only when you are using it. I wish I could develop a pre-emptive anti-explosion test...

7. The ZTS tester measures, rather correctly, the deliverability of energy from the battery. Hovewer, while a 20% battery is suspect, a 100% is not explosion proof either.

8. Cells that are in series are not the prime cause for explosions. Cells in series only promote and accellerate the explosion of the single defective cell.

9. Water, other pollutants, or improper formulated electrolytes, are the cause of the reported explosions. In view of this, I would recommend fellow CPFers stop using 123 produced in non certified plants.

Regards

Anthony

 

[NewBie]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

The ZTS test results have little correlation with the energy content of a 123 cell.


Newbie's tests were done with cells that had been discharged to produce cells of diminshed energy content which has little correlation with ZTS results.

There may be some misunderstandings. Lets see what we can do to spin things up.


Quickbeam did some tests and found the ZTS test results correlate with the cell's energy. You can find his test info here, complete with cell runtime:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=123801&highlight=ZTS


I've also tested way too many cells that were tested at 100% on the ZTS tester from Battery Station, and had zero cell failures, under conditions where I can consistently cause a failure with mis-matched cells. I'd never say they are 100% explosion proof though.

I am currently making a datalogger setup to collect additional data, during failure and non-failure conditions, so we can better see what is going on. One portion of planned future tests is to also check cells with various readings from the ZTS tester under the same conditions.

 

[kromeke]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Thanks Anthony for the quick clairification.

Let me see if I understand correctly:

H2O is a contaminate of MnO2, because it isn't properly made anhydrous. Heat in the cell drives off the H2O in the MnO2, much like heating hydrated copper sulfate under flame will drive out the water (and make the copper sulfate anhydrous). (I'm only mentioning copper sulfate because I rememeber doing this in chemistry class, it has nothing to do with battery chemistry)

The heat occurs due to current being drawn off the cell, and the reaction providing the current(and voltage) is an exothermic reaction. The more current, the faster the reaction, the more heat is produced, the more heat that is produced, more water is driven off of the MnO2. The presence of H2O with lithium produces hydrogen, if the hydrogen cannot permeate fast enough through the seal, it causes a rupture?

Help me out, is MnO2 have more affinity for moisture than Li? I mean, if moisture enters the cell after manufacture due to a bad seal (due to bad crimp, mechanical damage, whatever) does it get absorbed by the MnO2, react with the lithium, or some of both? Or does it depend on what material is first encountered (MnO2 vs. Lithium).

Is moisture entry after manufacture really an issue? Or is it primarly an issue of non-anhydrous MnO2 being used for battery manufacture.

My gut feeling is that this is bad QC in the battery manufacture (or in QC of source components), compounded by higher than designed currents being drawn off of the cell.

Thanks again Anthony for your clairification.

 

[NewBie]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Thanks Anthony for the quick clairification.

Let me see if I understand correctly:

H2O is a contaminate of MnO2, because it isn't properly made anhydrous. Heat in the cell drives off the H2O in the MnO2, much like heating hydrated copper sulfate under flame will drive out the water (and make the copper sulfate anhydrous). (I'm only mentioning copper sulfate because I rememeber doing this in chemistry class, it has nothing to do with battery chemistry)

The heat occurs due to current being drawn off the cell, and the reaction providing the current(and voltage) is an exothermic reaction. The more current, the faster the reaction, the more heat is produced, the more heat that is produced, more water is driven off of the MnO2. The presence of H2O with lithium produces hydrogen, if the hydrogen cannot permeate fast enough through the seal, it causes a rupture?

Help me out, is MnO2 have more affinity for moisture than Li? I mean, if moisture enters the cell after manufacture due to a bad seal (due to bad crimp, mechanical damage, whatever) does it get absorbed by the MnO2, react with the lithium, or some of both? Or does it depend on what material is first encountered (MnO2 vs. Lithium).

Is moisture entry after manufacture really an issue? Or is it primarly an issue of non-anhydrous MnO2 being used for battery manufacture.

My gut feeling is that this is bad QC in the battery manufacture (or in QC of source components), compounded by higher than designed currents being drawn off of the cell.

Thanks again Anthony for your clairification.

Unfortunately, I do not see how this fits at all in the failure mode I've been able to replicate rather repeatably.

Two cells ZTS tested at 100%, ran a few dozen, zero events.

Get two more 100% ZTS tested cells. Take one and discharge it by 10-40%, and you get an event over 75% of the time, and once you dial it in, I've had up to seven failures in a row.

Take a depleted cell, and a 100% cell, hook them up, zero events.


I don't buy the water excuse. Could you elaborate on this theory and my observed results Ray-of-Light?

I could understand a cell that was hot (increase in chemical reactivity) due to a high performance 1-1.5A draw light, plus reverse charged (e.g. mis-matched cells).

However, one cell depleted beyond 50%, I don't see the failure mode. Nor do I see it with one fully depleted.

But if the draw goes above 1.6A, even on mis-matched cells I see no failures, and the cells don't sustain draws above this very long, as they get hot, the PTC starts kicking in, and I see no failure events.

e.g. connect the dots.

 

[wquiles]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I just received my ZTS MBT-1 tester today. I had many CR123 cells that I had partially used in several lights over the last 12-18 months and it was very, very revealing to see how some of them which where stored/used together had developed miss-matches capacities. Needles to say there were many cells I will never use again and will have to safely trow away

From now on, I will always test the cells in the ZTS before using them

Will

 

[NewBie]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I just received in, fresh Titanium cells directly from Amondotech.

Had no problem getting them to vent during my standard mismatch test.

Details here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1540476&posted=1#post1540476

 

[kromeke]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Don't read to much in my post #86. It is a lot of questions and speculation. Calling it a hypothosis might be a strech. I don't off the top buy the moisture explaination, but I cannot refute it. I would appreciate if anyone can make some cite any information on moisture in lithium cell manufacture.

I'm not saying that moisture is the cause, but Anthony believes it is. I'm also not saying it isn't the cause.

 

[NewBie]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

BTW, I just added video of the Lithium Primary CR123A cells from AmondoTech, failing in the link above.

 

[HarryN]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Hi - coming late to this thread.

A couple of safety related items for Chronos
- Please be sure to feed your family extra calcium for a few weeks - maybe to an excess, just in case there has been some F ion exposure. Milk products, etc.
- Watch for unusual rashes.

- Wash the car out with your normal cleaning soaps but add some baking soda to the mix.

I noticed to my horror that you are handling the light with bare hands in some pics. Gloves would be better.

Lastly, is there ANY chance that the cell that you split from the "stick" was somehow damaged by the separation process ? I would have guessed that a stick like that was built by a combination of electrically connecting the cells as well as an external shrink wrap ?

 

[Chronos]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

HarryN:

Thanks for the concern! I'll definitely make sure the kids and my wife are taking extra calcium. The kids LOVE milk so it shouldn't be a problem. No rashes and no health issues at all. I assume it vented during the time I left the driver's and passenger's windows slightly open (an accident- darn rental).

Yes, I handled the light prior to knowing the cell actually "exploded/vented." The batteries, the tailcap, and the LED head are all sealed in double ziplock bags in the garage. I'm sending the cells off to Wayne today via priority mail. I'm awaiting word on what to do with the flashlight head. I was able to thoroughly scrub the M2 body and detonator with detergents and all the residue did get removed.

As for the car, it was a rental. I explained there was a battery explosion but they were non-plussed.

The sticks are only held together by a clear plastic sleeve. When I separated the two I made a few piercings of the skin, then simply snapped them apart. They are not bonded together in any way other than the clear plastic skin.

 

[Walt175]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I don't know if it was mentioned, but what kind of G&P tailcap was it? Was it that new strobe version?

 

[David_Campen]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Please be sure to feed your family extra calcium for a few weeks - maybe to an excess, just in case there has been some F ion exposure. Milk products, etc.

note that fluoride is deliberately added to most drinking water supplies (and toothpaste):
http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/teeth/fluoride.html

 

[Chronos]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

I don't know if it was mentioned, but what kind of G&P tailcap was it? Was it that new strobe version?

Yes, it was. It may well have closed the circuit. I just don't know. It had worked perfectly. Perhaps the tailcap did get engaged; I know we drove over a rough road to find a parking spot at the beach, but I drove at a snail's pace, and the light was on its side in a lined compartment. But I guess anything is possible.

 

[Brighteyez]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

This article at the Cadex site might also be helpful to some people who have concerns about the Lithium and LIon battery chemistries.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-10.htm

 

[SilverFox]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Hello David,

None of this has been demonstrated to be true. "Testing" and "matching" cells with an MBT makes some people feel good and it probably doesn't hurt anything but there is no evidence that it is of any value.

I find it interesting that Newbie found that he has been unable to get any of the ZTS matched cells to vent, or rapidly vent with flame. The ZTS may not be totally "precise," but it does seem to be useful in preventing problems with mismatched cells.

Newbie's testing may not qualify as strong evidence, but I think it is a strong step in the right direction.

Tom

 

[David_Campen]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I find it interesting that Newbie found that he has been unable to get any of the ZTS matched cells to vent, or rapidly vent with flame. The ZTS may not be totally "precise," but it does seem to be useful in preventing problems with mismatched cells.

Newbie's testing may not qualify as strong evidence, but I think it is a strong step in the right direction.

I would like to see the reports of where he actually did this - MBT test a batch of cells and then demonstrate that MBT matched cells don't vent while MBT unmatched cells do vent.

 

[SilverFox]

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Hello David,

I would like to see the reports of where he actually did this - MBT test a batch of cells and then demonstrate that MBT matched cells don't vent while MBT unmatched cells do vent.

Here is what Newbie reported...

I've ran 60 sets of Battery Station cells in this specific scenario, and got venting over 75% the time, and nearly 100% venting in the PM6. I have to emphasize that the cells need to be mis-matched by 30% (discharged by 30% on purpose and used with a fresh cell) to cause the failure mode, when they are matched e.g. ZTS tested, I was unable to get them to vent.

From this thread.

Tom