AW rechargeable's questions

[michiganstud]

OK, I have been sifting through thread after thread for the past few days of gobbly-gook (stuff I can't decypher) on batteries. I am a bit out of my league here and I can't find the answers so here goes the questions that I have specific to my needs (since I really can't find what I need).

You guys haven't failed me yet. I have purchased the Surefire 6P and put a dropin Q5 bulb in it. Currently I am running cheap unprotected ultrafires in it. I am aware that the mAh rating on these batteries is around on average 500 - far off from whatever rating they are advertising that week.

Having given a background - I am trying to get a battery that will give me the longest run time. I have narrowed down to the highly recommended AW protected cells.

Here is what I need help with:

1. With my ultrafire batteries I am getting about 45 minutes continuous burn until dim. Is that going to be about average for any battery with this bulb?

2. If I order the AW 750 mAh 123a's what will my burn time be until dim?

3. Are the AW batt's really 750 mAh?

4. I have read that the R2 bulb uses less than the Q5 does. Does anyone know the runtimes using the R2 bulb? (I ordered one to see the difference)

5. Is there another battery option that will give me longer run time? (I know that the 18650 batt's will not work in the Surefire unless I get an upgraded tube). This is a possibility I am willing to pursue depending on how much more runtime I will get out of it.


Thanks to anyone who can help me make sense of this.

 

[Kestrel]

Sorry that I don't have all the answers, but I have some:
3. No. At a 1.0 amp drain rate, the AW RCR123 has about 420 milliamp hours. The least-honest category is the RCR123 since it is such a hotly-contested category.
5. The 17670 is a very good option since the stock 6P can't take the 18650. It has 75% of the stored energy of the 18650, but it is still an excellent option, far better than two RCR123 which have about 40% of the stored energy (combined) of the single 18650.

Using a single rechargeable cell will give you marginal voltage for most LED drop-ins, resulting in slightly less output, but _considerably_ more runtime and a graceful decline in output as the single cell depletes prior to protection-circuit shutoff.

 

[Mike.Austin]

+1 on the 17670 form AW available at Lighthound... just make sure your Q5 will work on 3.7V otherwise it might be a little dim from the 3.7V as opposed to the 6v you get from primaries or 7.4v from two RCR123.
I have some dropin's that work well on 3.7 and then some that are noticeably dimmer...would take a guess and say that perhaps the ones I have that run dimmer are running direct and not regulated?

 

[michiganstud]

I checked on DX and the Q5 and the R2 require a 3.7v minimum.

So the 17670 cells are 3.6v - so the output will be less because of the voltage difference. Is that what you meant?

 

[DHart]

Not sure how much I can contribute to answering the question, but I have some thoughts. I've gradually been working my way toward using single cells in most of my lights, yes the 6P's and the 3P's. I run an AW protected 17670 in my Surefire Z2 (originally an incan) now driving a Malkoff M60F. I've never timed the run on any of my lights... I guess because the way I use my lights, I really don't care THAT much to know. I use the 17670 in the Z2 because there's no way I would bore out a perfectly good Surefire tube just to use an 18650... not when the Solarforce 3p/6p clones are so nice and inexpensive and capable of housing whatever cells I want to put in them.

I've read in a number of your posts repeated concern for maximizing runtime... this appears to be paramount to you. And if that is at of close to the top of your priorities, why bother with 17670 at all? Just get a Solarforce L2 and have at the 18650.

Remember that there's only so much energy in the universe... whenever you make a choice to receive a particular benefit in some way you will ALWAYS give something up. It's just a matter of deciding what you are willing to trade away for what you wish to gain. I have found this principle to be inviolate in every aspect of worldly life.

Back to my move toward using all single cell options in my lights; with my 6Ps/clones and 3Ps/clones I seek out lamps which are rated for, like 3v to 4.2v or so. Usually avoiding the lamps stating huge ranges like 3v to 18v. Weird thing is, some of the lamps capable of a huge range are set up to be about as bright from 3.7v as they are from 8.4v... but you can't count on that, it seems, as each individual lamp seems to have a character of its own. My Solarforce R2-M lamps which are rated for 3.7-4.3v are usually brighter with a single cell than my Solarforce R2-M lamps rated for like 3.7 to 18v or so.

I've mentioned this to you before and I'll say it again, as important as runtime seems to you, I would suggest buying a host which can house an 18650 from the get go (without having to ream the holy innards out of it!), like the Solarforce L2 18650 & Surefire tailcap, get a Malkoff M60 or M60warm, a couple of AW protected 18650's and a charger. You will have the most glorious, high-quality light and a very, very long runtime, giving a graceful decline. I think that's as good as it gets in the 3P/6P category. I run my 3P's like this too and ,yes, they have much shorter run times than the 18650... but I don't expect a really long runtime from any of my 3P lights.

I think Kestrel, was it you, who posted a runtime of something like 4 hours on the 17670 with an M60 before giving up and going to bed? The 17670 is a nice advance from RCR123 for sure, and nice to have if that's all you can handle iin the light you choose to use, but the 18650 is fabulous.

 

[Mike.Austin]

I checked on DX and the Q5 and the R2 require a 3.7v minimum.

So the 17670 cells are 3.6v - so the output will be less because of the voltage difference. Is that what you meant?

Yes..this is what I meant...another consideration is to get a multi-stage LED with different output levels..this will improve your runtime provided you run lower levels when you don't need the high output...again would refer you to Lighthound...

 

[michiganstud]

Thanks again DHart! Run time is important, because mainly I never know what I will be doing with it. Am I going to a building search for 20 minutes, or am I directing traffic with it for 4 hours. Whichever I chose I knew I would be getting at least two if not more to change out batteries as needed.

For right now, I don't see getting a new light when I have one right now. If I could send mine back and get one of the solarfoce lights I would for sure. But for right now I need to focus on batteries.

It sounds like I will be good to go with the 17670 - an option I never knew existed. And carrying one extra battery is a heck of a lot better than carrying two or four.

My worry is that my current batteries are only giving me 45 minutes of run time. That's not much for an LED.

 

[michiganstud]

I just found this for reference:

(2) AW 750 mah RCR123's in the Surefire C2 + M60 ran for 38 minutes before shutting off. In a second test with different RCR123's it ran for 41 minutes before shutting off.

(1) AW 1600 mah 17670 + SF C2 + M60 ran for 3 hours before I shut it off - it was very dim at that point. At the one hour mark I pulled the cell and measured the voltage - 3.78 volts. So we get roughly 1 hour of regulated output and 2 hours of declining output.

(1) AW 2200 mah 18650 + Leefbody + M60 ran for 3.5 hours before I shut it off (had to go to work) it was dim but not as dim as the 17670 test - probably would do 4 hours+. At the 1.5 hour mark I pulled the cell and measured the voltage - 3.83 volts. So with the 18650 we get over 1.5 hours of regulated output and 2 - 2.5 hours? of declining output.

The same m60 bulb ran 38 minutes on 123a's, 3 hours on 17670 and 3.5 on 18650's!

So to sum up what I am thinking....there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between 123a's and 17670's, but not much of a difference between that and 18650.

So the 17670's would be the way to go?

 

[Kestrel]

I think Kestrel, was it you, who posted a runtime of something like 4 hours on the 17670 with an M60 before giving up and going to bed? The 17670 is a nice advance from RCR123 for sure, and nice to have if that's all you can handle iin the light you choose to use, but the 18650 is fabulous.

Here ya go:
M60 (a ~240 lumen drop-in that falls out of regulation below ~3.8 volts) with a single AW _protected_ 17500 (the closest thing I had to the slightly-higher capacity 17670):
~200 to ~140 lumens for hour one.
~140 to ~80 lumens for hour two.
~80 lumens to ~20 lumens for hour three.
After 4 hours, down to maybe 10 lumens and still the protection circuit hasn't triggered, so I got bored & turned off the light. 10 lumens is still pretty darn useful, especially if there isn't much ambient light.

Compare this to a lower-voltage module specifically designed for running on a single 3.7v cell with a 17500 (or a higher-voltage module running off of multiple smaller cells to obtain the specified higher voltage), providing a runtime of ~1 hour @ the full output of 240 lumens.

So to generalize, you would be looking at maybe an hour of full output then the protection circuit cuts off, or somewhat less than full output, declining over a period of 3-4 hours. Totally different behavior from a simple change in cell configuration. This is where DHart is coming from.:thumbsup:

 

[DHart]

You are a flashaholic fore-runner, Kestrel... :candle: First you open my eyes to the merits of the M30 over the M60, then you really throw open the floodgates and expose the superior brilliance of the M60 with an 18650! I'm following you closely!

Mike makes an important point... most of the time most of us do not need the full output of our lights. If you really want long runtimes, do what has been suggested by choosing cells with the most capacity and then use lamps with drivers or switches to be able to step down the output and avoid full output unless you truly need it.

I happen to have quite a few lights and the one that gives the longest potential runtime (though I never strive to achieve this) is my Jet III M, which runs on a single 18650 and has the ability to ramp down to an astoundingly low level. And this is one of the reasons I bought the light... to have should I ever find myself NEEDING exceptionally long run times... then the Jet III M will be my primary (along with the LF3XT).

 

[Kestrel]

Gosh! <blush>

Sorry, I doubt I can do any encores, and we need Gene to send us such good things to mess with. I've only figured things out by reading the real experts here (Mdocod, DM51, Sgt.LED, Marduke, Rat6P, Bullzeyebill, SilverFox, they're the heroes). And you're whupping me by collection size and soon by post count!

 

[DHart]

Kestrel... I've learned so much from the guys on this forum over the last few months.... it's mind boggling how much there is to know. And yet, when it comes to really knowing flashlight electronics, doing custom mods and such, I am a rank nube... there's a big threshold that I'm really struggling to cross. Awesome forum and people here.

michiganstud... I'm not sure if you've been doing your homework on batteries. There are a lot of resources here to learn from (many old threads and reference sites to study). And it takes a lot of time and study to get all this stuff. You should also attend battery university. The Search window on the top op these pages (Google search within CPF) is your best friend.

One thing you don't want to do much of is draining your cells (especially the unprotected cells) down til they die. That (and overcharging) are the best ways to kill Li-Ions. You should charge up your Li-Ions somewhere in mid-cycle rather than draw them down til they're exhausted. These ain't nicads we're talkin' about.

 

[michiganstud]

So do the protected 123a's SHUT OFF after 40 minutes? Or do they go dim for a while then shut off?

 

[DHart]

So do the protected 123a's SHUT OFF after 40 minutes? Or do they go dim for a while then shut off?

Instant off... bye-bye with no warning.

 

[michiganstud]

Instant off... bye-bye with no warning.

Looks like a major con and a major reason to go with the 17670's!! I didn't realize there wasn't a "dim" run time.

 

[DHart]

Primaries will give you a graceful decline. Just be careful using two primaries together in a flashlight... no mixing brands, no old 'n' new, no cheapies, no funny business... ya know? This is one reason why I LOVE single cell lights (esp. Surefire E1 series lights) and rechargeables, especially a set-up using a large, fat, single rechargeable (18650) with a Malkoff M60! Nice. And they're, well, rechargeable! :twothumbs

Don't forget to check out the Jet III Military with 18650.... that's a great, versatile light for extreme duty, LE, military, SHTF scenarios. The low is amazingly low and lasts practically forever on an 18650. Full high is always just a head twist away. Programmable alternate setting it also a head twist away. Light can be set to come on in any mode or brightness you wish. Ramps up and down for infinite brightness setting. Runs on an 18650, 17670, two RCR123's, two primaries. Tailstands for a soft, beautiful ceiling illumination (I use this almost every night), momentary for tactical use, signals and SOS for emergency situations, stainless steel bezel ring and tailcap ring for durable applications, choice of Q5 and R2 brilliant output, several different reflector choices (SMO, OP, Hybrid), warm or cool Q5 emmiter choices... YIKES.... there's a LOT to like about the Jet III M! If I were in LE, this would probably be my choice for duty light... with an E1b for back up.

 

[michiganstud]

Well....I purchased the 17670's and a charger. We'll see how it goes.

I'll give a review with run times.

 

[michiganstud]

I got the batteries today.

I AM NOT IMPRESSED! The 17670 battery seems to underpower my Q5 bulb. When compared to another flashlight with a Q5 and two 3.7 rechargies on board it is SIGNIFICANTLY dimmer.

And I mean a noticeable difference. Swap those batteries and I get the same performance on the opposite flashlights.

I am doing a run time test right now.

 

[Black Rose]

If it is dim, the it sounds like the Q5 requires more than the 3.7 - 4.2 volts provided by the 17670.

I have a light here that has an operating voltage range of 3.7 - 8.4 volts.

I get the same output whether I use 3.7 - 4.2 volt 18650/17670 cells or 2 16340 cells for 7.4 - 8.4 volts.

What are the SKUs of the Q5 and R2 drop-ins at DX?

 

[michiganstud]

The R2 sku is 11836, 3.7 - 18 v

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11836

The Q5 is: 11621, 3.7 - 18 v

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11621