Battery Temperatures During Charging For NiMH

MarioJP

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Ok I keep reading, and hearing about how NiMh batteries are sensitive to high temperatures, but yet you have chargers that heats them up. Some chargers do a better job of keeping the batteries cool than others.

The chargers that don't is what gets me concerned. I Have a Duracell 4AA charger which I use it as a portable power to charge my usb devices from 4AA. However I will not use that charger to charge my batteries due to the charger gets the batteries hot, even if the charging rate is 500ma. I want to know is how hot is too hot before it is no longer good for the battery?.
 
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10 deg F above ambient is good, 126 deg F is pushing it. Simple and basic.
 
I have the lacrosse bc-900 that superheats the cells too. I've started putting a fan on the charger and they stay about room temp. The other day with the fan off, the bays were cutting off on temp protection and the cell were showing 120-145 with the IR thermometer.

It's generally the charger that heats them, a cell shouldn't really get more than warm until charged above 1C
 
I have the lacrosse bc-900 that superheats the cells too. I've started putting a fan on the charger and they stay about room temp. The other day with the fan off, the bays were cutting off on temp protection and the cell were showing 120-145 with the IR thermometer.

It's generally the charger that heats them, a cell shouldn't really get more than warm until charged above 1C

Funny how you mention that because I have the exact same charger and I too added a cooling fan. It does get quite hot. So that's 2 chargers that gets the batteries hot

1.BC-9009 or 900
2.Duracell 4AA Mobile charger with USB to charge USB devices from a power outlet or from batteries.
 
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same goes for discharging?

Well, the cells shouldn't get hot from the stress, but the charger will be turning that energy into heat, so the charger could get fairly hot.

With the lacrosse, the fan is really just to keep the heat from the charger migrating to the cells.
 
Keep nimhs and lithium cells below 160F.
Get to 160F and you've cooked 'em. Even sub-c cells, which are made to be charged at multi C rates, and discharged at even higher rates, are generally rated for 146F max temp. That's way too high for AA and AAA.
 
Get to 160F and you've cooked 'em. Even sub-c cells, which are made to be charged at multi C rates, and discharged at even higher rates, are generally rated for 146F max temp. That's way too high for AA and AAA.

Like what exactly happens internally of the cell and what is the negative results from this?
 
If the cells are too hot to touch (~130ish), you are either charging them with the wrong algorithm, or they are already cooked from mistreatment.
 
Like what exactly happens internally of the cell and what is the negative results from this?
Magic smoke is let out.

In all seriousness, they may leak, melt the shrink wrap, etc... Not good in any sense whatsoever. For our purposes, with AA and AAA cells, do not go any higher than 126F, and that's an absolute MAX. I've found that most healthy cells will end up around 103F-109F at the end of a 16 hour break-in charge, and that's in 78F-80F ambient temp.
 
Reason why I ask this is because I want to keep the batteries cool during charging. Some chargers out there heats the cells up from the charger itself.


Batteries only gets warm when it is nearing its charging cycle normally, unless the cell has a high internal resistance.
 
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eh, I cannot resist responding to the question of chargers, charging rates, and NiMH cell temps at moment of charge complete detection.

I believe that SilverFox and others have several stickies on Ni-MH chargers, and some of those tests include the cell temp at termination. I recommend searching for an reading those reviews first - a lot of work went in to those reviews, for which the CPF Community is truly thankful for data, not opinions!

Having provided that disclaimer, I will proceed to give my opinion based on years of Ni-CD and NiMH cell charging. I understand the recommended theory about charging at some C or fractional C rate. However the same charge rate from different chargers also heats the cells differently because of very different charging algorithms. I am not aware of any modern charger that uses a straight DC charge current. They all have various pulsed charge algorithms with more precise or more coarse charge cut-off methods. FWIW, I have or had, 2x BC700, 3x BC900, 2x Maha 9000, various Maha chargers including the C800S or C801D, 5x Sony charger BCG-34xxx, Kodak, etc. etc. So I have had enough samples of most chargers to differentiate between a sample of one with a degrees of freedom of zero, or at least a couple copies to ensure that my experience was not an anomaly.

Frankly, I am surprised at the rather wide cell temp differences upon detection of charge completion assuming approximately the same charge rate, but using different chargers, to the extent I am able to control the charge rate.

It is understood that a very slow charge rate will not reliably detect the charge completion signal, usually a slight decline in cell voltage. The better chargers have a higher resolution to detect this change.

However, at some point, all chargers I have possessed have missed charge termination with new cells or cells that have been sitting for months if not years, even with the "recommended" charge rates for the cell capacity. New NiMH cells that have been formed at the factory cost more than the lower-cost cells with no forming. If you purchase the lower cost cells, expect to spend some time in forming the cell. Some cells require 10-20 cycles of what could be considered normal charging before they demonstrate a capacity even close to their rating. Hence the "forming charge" feature in the Maha 9000.

The BC-900 or BC-700 default to a 200ma rate for any cell. As Silverfox has amply explained, although the charger will terminate the charge on a 200ma rate, there may have been some overcharging before the completion signal was sensed. On the other hand, pushing 1000ma into each cell with 4 cells in the BC-900 charger will result in a high cell temp at charge completion. Even a 700ma charge rate in a BC-700/900 results in high cell temps - whether too high or not is an opinion. I did measure the temps with a thermocouple a few times with different charge rates and noted that the temp was below the cell manufacturers max rating. However from experience I know that using an electric/electronic device up to it's max rating nearly always means a shortened lifetime, batteries included. I personally prefer the 500ma charge rate with either the BC-900 or BC-700 chargers. And I do like the BC-700 charger because the power supply is smaller so it travels more compactly, and I would almost never use a charge rate above 700ma.

The Maha 9000 defaults to a 1000ma charge rate, but the charger is physically larger to space out the cells such that they do not heat each other, and the charging algorithm is different. In general, the Maha 9000 results in lower cell temps at charge termination for a similar charge rate.

The Maha C800S and C801D offer different charge rates, but also tend to result in lower temps at charge completion. The C801D was sent on a 1 year sailing trip, served well, and survived lightning strikes on the boat! The choice for the C801D was made because of the higher charge rate since they were using solar cells for the basic power source. IOW, use the solar cell power while the sun was shining rather than lose efficiency by charging the boats batteries to allow charging over a longer period of time. The C800S was later selected because of it's lower charge rate. Both went on the year sailing trip. Irrespective of posted comments as to what a proper charge rate for NiMH cells should be, Maha designed both chargers, and both chargers function quite nicely.

Also, there are some chargers identified in the Silverfox testing that excessively heat the cells. My family has traveled extensively in Europe. Both daughters have had melted cell sleeves and worse when using the C401FS on a 240VAC mains when set on a high rate charge. A slow charge setting did not seem to melt any sleeves. The point of the comment is not to complain about one charger or another - go read the tests from SilverFox!

Ref the recent posts about a charger/cell self-destruct in SE Asia. One of my engineer friends had a charger self-destruct in the US on 120VAC mains as well. As Silverfox posted in that thread, do not take any charging process for granted. Keep checking any charging process to ensure no surprises.
 
If the cells are too hot to touch (~130ish):
  • you are either charging them with the wrong algorithm, or
    .
  • they are already cooked from mistreatment.
Also:
  • OLD AGE -> High Internal Resistance (need to lower Charge current from 1.0C to compensate)
    .
  • CHARGE CURRENT TOO HIGH -> over 1.0C (i.e. less than 1 Hour Chargers)
    .
  • CHARGER CIRCUIT EMITTING TOO MUCH HEAT -> poor air circulation
    .
  • :thinking:
 
Also:
  • OLD AGE -> High Internal Resistance (need to lower Charge current from 1.0C to compensate)
    .
  • CHARGE CURRENT TOO HIGH -> over 1.0C (i.e. less than 1 Hour Chargers)
    .
  • CHARGER CIRCUIT EMITTING TOO MUCH HEAT -> poor air circulation
    .
  • :thinking:

I consider the appropriate charge current for the cell (your first and second points) to be part of using the correct algorithm (of which charge current is a component).
 
The effect of the charger cannot be underestimated. I charged two cells in this Targus TG-LCD2700 charger and they reached a temperature during charging of 55°C (130°F) at a 1000 mA charging current (two hour charging). These are cells that when charged at 1000 mA in the C9000 barely get above room temperature. Therefore I think it is really important that the charger itself has cool running electronics, and that the charger keeps the heat from the charging circuit away from the batteries. Many compact chargers fail this test.
 
The effect of the charger cannot be underestimated. I charged two cells in this Targus TG-LCD2700 charger and they reached a temperature during charging of 55°C (130°F) at a 1000 mA charging current (two hour charging). These are cells that when charged at 1000 mA in the C9000 barely get above room temperature. Therefore I think it is really important that the charger itself has cool running electronics, and that the charger keeps the heat from the charging circuit away from the batteries. Many compact chargers fail this test.
No doubt! I have the C401FS moldyoldy referenced; it is a cell cooker on the fast setting. Cells too close, deltaV set too high, I have no idea. Take home lesson is, not all chargers are created equal. Either learn from the community that has already tested the charger, or, and this is a better option, get a cheap IR gun and observe your charger with your cells.
 
10 deg F above ambient is good, 126 deg F is pushing it. Simple and basic.
+1 :thumbsup:

120°F is my personal limit. My old RadioShack 63-854 LCD Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer switches to 'HHH' at 123°F, so when I see that it means (i.e. order of progression - If #1 overheats, try #2...):
  1. BC-900: Use only outer 2 slots (to improve air circulation)
    - If that doesn't help,
  2. BC-900: Reduce Charge current
    - If that doesn't help,
  3. C-9000: Reduce Charge current
    - If that doesn't help,
  4. RECYCLE! ;)
 
I consider the appropriate charge current for the cell (your first and second points) to be part of using the correct algorithm (of which charge current is a component).
Different interpretations:

I view the FIRMWARE of the Charger regarding it's termination methods (i.e. -DeltaV, DT, Max Voltage, Max Temp, Max Time) to be it's algorithm for ending the Charge Stage.

I view selecting the appropriate Charge current as a user-input PARAMETER (since the subject of "BC-900 w/fan" was brought up). But, in the case of FIXED Charge current chargers, I can also see your perspective of including it as part of the total algorithm.
 
Get to 160F and you've cooked 'em. Even sub-c cells, which are made to be charged at multi C rates, and discharged at even higher rates, are generally rated for 146F max temp. That's way too high for AA and AAA.

I was more specifically talking about the ambient temperature. If the cell is 160F on the outside, who knows how hot it is on the inside. I have had cells melt all of their heatshrink off as well as their wire insulation (Exceeding 180F) and retained over half of the battery capacity.

If I was charging nimhs, I wouldn't want them to get much beyond the 'barely hotter than ambient'. That said, I store nimhs/lipos in my black truck during the summer (For field days with RC Planes). With my research, I want to keep the temperature inside that truck below 160F, so I have to have the windows down/cracked most of the time. The inside of a car with the windows rolled up can easily exceed 146F, I've heard as high as 180F. Also, common epoxy breaks down at 160F.
 
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