Best battery setup for 6P+M60+A19 extension?

[madmike283]

Hey guys, I'm a light newb. I'll be getting a SF 6P with Malkoff M60 and A19 extension this week. I was wondering what my best option would be for batteries for this thing. 235 lumens is WAY more than I've ever had before in a light, so I think making the most of the runtime is what I'm looking for right now. So are three cr123 primaries the way I should go? I think I understand that rechargeables have significantly less mAh rating, so I get less out of them, right? Plus, the rcr's are 3.6v source, so I couldn't run three of them in my setup with the extension, right? Is there a batteries-for-dummies primer here that explains the differences in one place, cr123 vs. rcr123, etc.?

Thanks for putting up with my silly question for now. I have a feeling I'll be spending many more hours reading around here.

Mike

 

[KDOG3]

Welcome to CPF! You'll have fun, but your wallet will be wimpering from abuse from now on....

As for your question, you can't use 3 RCRs' in it, but you can use 2x17500 RCRs. Just fine. Can I ask why you want a 6P and an A19? You could just get a 9P or better yet a C3-HA....

 

[madmike283]

Thanks for your reply.

As to your question... This was a slightly used package deal that was on the CPFM and I thought it looked like a decent deal, so I jumped on it. It was somewhat an impulse buy to get my feet wet, I guess you could say. We'll see how long I have it before I try something different.

 

[powernoodle]

I just received an M60 MC-E today, and will be trying it out in this 6P+A19+A19, feeding on 2x17670 (edit: corrected thanks to Bullzeyebill):

 

[Bullzeyebill]

powernoodle, so your 6P and A19 have been bored out?

Bill

 

[powernoodle]

I lied. I meant 17670. Pila 168S will also fit in there.

Too many toys, and too many batteries. :thumbsup:

 

[metlarules]

I would use 2 AW 17500 li-ions and be done with it. Whatever you do don't skimp on battery quality.

 

[madmike283]

I would use 2 AW 17500 li-ions and be done with it. Whatever you do don't skimp on battery quality.

So what would be the ultimate differences between three primary cr123 and two 17500s? In regards to output, run-time, will they both provide direct drive dimming before shutdown?

Sorry, but I've got some brushing up to do on my electricity math.

 

[mdocod]

Hi madmike,

With 3 CR123s in that configuration, assuming good quality cells, you'll have ~11 watt-hours stored energy. The vast majority of that stored energy will be delivered such that the combined voltage of the cells will be above the cut-in point for regulation on the M60 (output will stay constant for most of the discharge). I would expect around 130-150+ minutes of regulated runtime, followed by some fairly quick dimming, but for emergency use it should give you at least an hour of "dim" output with the cells basically "dead" but just sucking off the last of it. Someone who owns this setup and uses it could probably give better feedback on this though.

With 2 protected 17500s (AW), you'll have around 8-9 watt-hours stored energy. The input voltage through the drain will always be above the cut-in point for regulation (light will stay constant in output through discharge), and the cells protection circuit will suddenly shut down the light when they are "dead" so there will be no warning or dimming. Runtime till shutdown should theoretically be around 105 minutes.


Ideally, It would be better to have a 2x18500 body, say an FM or Leef body, so that you could run the larger diameter cells, and get pretty similar runtime to the CR123s, or 2x18650 body so you could have even more runtime, but it depends on what size body you really want. The advantage of the 3 cell body length is always maintaining backwards compatibility with CR123s on the M60.

Sure you'll loose some runtime on 17500s... but in reality, in actual use, you GAIN runtime most of the time because you can top off the cells after each use, so you are always starting fresh from whenever you have that chance to top off. If you are using CR123s, the only way to always walk out the door "topped off" is to replace cells prematurely, or always carry a spare set of cells. I'd suggest carrying a spare set of cells if you use the light a lot anyways, but that spare set could be either primary or rechargeable cells. Rotating a set of rechargeable cells is also a great way to go. Especially if you couple the concept to a good quality charger that terminates properly, like a Pila IBC, that way you can just leave the cells on the charger. Just swap em when you want to.

Eric

 

[madmike283]

Eric,

Thanks a lot for the thorough reply. That helps a lot in understanding the basics here. I'll have to do some reading on the LiIon and see if I want to venture into that territory. It seems that it's a bit more cumbersome as far as maintaining the cells, keeping an eye on discharge and charge Vs, and routinely keeping them at peak performance.

Like you mention, the good thing about the 3 cell body is that you have the options. I think I'll grab a handful of primaries for now to start with and keep learning about the LiIon option to see if I want to try that route.

Thanks again.

 

[forumname05]

So, if I was running 3 CR123s in a 9P with either an M60 or DX11836 (still not sure what drop-in I'll run) could I just pull the cells when they start dimming and throw them into the Pila charger? Or is this not 'proper'?
How many CR123s can the Pila unit charge at one time?

Do you guys know of anyone who can bore out my SF bodies to accept 18XXX cells?

I'm a newbie as well and want to build a really great performing & dependable 6P and 9P set-up for myself.

 

[powernoodle]

Distinguish between CR123 batteries, which are not rechargeable, and RCR123 batteries, which are. Big diff. Maybe you just misspoke there.


:thumbsup:

 

[forumname05]

Distinguish between CR123 batteries, which are not rechargeable, and RCR123 batteries, which are. Big diff. Maybe you just misspoke there.


:thumbsup:

Sorry, I meant the rechargeables

 

[mdocod]

Sorry, I meant the rechargeables

Hello,

RCR123s are generally 3.7V and are not very energy dense, the 3.0V versions of them are generally junk and you shouldn't even bother with them if you can avoid them. In the case of a 9P LED setup, there is no practical reason to use 3xRCR123s when you can use 2x17500s and get substantially more energy stored, as well as have less cells to contend with on the charger. Most chargers are only 2 bay, so 2 cells is ideal. On top of that, the M60 has a maximum input voltage of ~9V, so 3 RCR123 3.7V cells would exceed that, making this an impossible configuration.

As per your previous question of waiting till dimming to recharge, this would only even happen with unprotected cells, as they would allow you to over-discharge them, but if you were to do this (wait till dimming to recharge), you would be effectively destroying the cells and increasing the risk of vent-with flame on each cycle.

Need to make this absolutely clear though, regular CR123s, are NOT rechargeable cells.

Take your time to get familiar with the concepts before making that first purchase. There is a lot of money wasted in the learning process for li-ion on configurations that are less than ideal, cells that are sub-poor, and completely incompatible configurations. Doing it right the first time will save money in the long run here.

Eric

 

[Kestrel]

A humble +1 on Mdocod's 2x17500 recommendation, I took his advice a while back & it's a great configuration for me.

It seems like the OP has some interest in a dimming configuration, which is of some benefit with regards to low-battery warning, no abrupt cutoffs. I think there are two feasible solutions for this:

• Carry a small backup light for when the protection circuit cuts off the current on your primary light, I use the SL Stylus Pro (on alkalines) for that and it works great as a backup.
• Use a single 17670 cell with the Malkoff M60 in a standard-length 6P. Kind of an unconventional solution, as you won't get the maximum output of the M60 - perhaps 80% but that's just a guess. However, you will get considerably extended runtimes and as the cell nears depletion you should notice decreasing output from the LED prior to the protection circuit triggering. I'm really interested in this setup and would have tried it already except that I'm happy with my current C3 configuration.

 

[etc]

I have a Surefire 9P that I used a 2x18500 body for.

You can use:

(a) 2x18500
(b) 3x123

I use 18500 mainly and 123 for backup. the latter give you pretty good runtime, the Li-Ion means "free lumens" but AW's protected cells will cut out on you suddenly while 123 have a very long tail of lite. I would say at least 1.5 hours and then some. I ran a set forever and wasn't able to get to the point where they died, even after maybe 3-4+ hours of tail you still got some "cigarette light" type of lumens. They don't leave you in the dark.

So I always carry spares. several sets actually.

Lately I decided to use a Leef 2x18650 body. I am more pleased with the runtime as 18500s were kind of marginal for me, at 2:15 hours (it goes by quicker than you think). That Leef body is bigger of course. G. Malkoff is making a special module that will run up to 12V. This way you can use:

(a) 2x18650
(b) 4x123

for an impressive runtime.

In fact, I have been thinking about dumping the 18500 configuration altogether and standardize on the 18650 cell and 123s. You can also get a 1x18650 body from Leef or FiveMega and run 1x18650 or 2x123 with the M30 module made to accept 6V instead of 5.5V.

I don't really want to have to deal with both 18500 and 18650 cells.

Thinking about all the permutations, P60 drop-in modules, tailcaps, bodies, batteries, there must be tens of thousands of choices (not all of them best I suppose)
Maybe a math major can give a good number of combos possible.

When you are done, you might end up with a one-of-a-kind lite. A lite that *nobody* else is using. For example, I wanted a Malkoff module that runs on AA cells, called M30, and I got the FiveMega 3xAA body. I plan to use L91 or NiMH but for the most part, I use Carbon-Zinc AA cells, I just happen to have a big supply of these junk cells. I get a surprising 3 hour runtime out of them. They cost me 2 cents each. The lumens level is somewhat comparable to an old 1W lite but they do work.
(Of course that combo works really well on Alks too)
You can be pretty certain nobody else on CPF or in the entire galaxy does something that silly.

I don't suggest 17500... just get a bigger body for the 18mm cell, but if you do go with 17500, get lots of spares... it should have less runtime than 18* cells which are marginal (IMO) to begin with.

 

[mdocod]

Couple years ago M60 output in that package [9Pish] was 15-30 minutes runtime depending on the battery options used, and that was all that you could do. I'm not going to name names or anything, but there's only one member of CPF who considers a runtime of over 2 hours in a 9P package size pumping over 200 lumens to be "marginal."

 

[FredericoFreire]

There are any Surefire body, C series compatible, that holds 2 x 17670 without extensions? :thinking:

 

[Bullzeyebill]

There are any Surefire body, C series compatible, that holds 2 x 17670 without extensions? :thinking:

The Surefire M6 body hold 2X17670, though it will be a tight fit considering the length of a protected 17670 (actually it is a protected 17650, the protection circuit resulting in added length, thus 17670).

Bill

 

[FredericoFreire]

C series compatible M6?