Big is better??? Chuck, that is.

gadget_lover

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I just upgraded my HF 7x10 to a bigger chuck. It's a 4 inch, 4 jaw from H&H Industrial Products.

I'm posting because I'm not sure if I should leave it on full time. You see, it's not only bigger, it's also longer and heavier.

Longer means it will take up about 1 inch of the lathe's capacity, but it has a 1 inch through hole so some stock can stick at least part-way into the chuck.

The real concern is the weight/mass. The 3 inch chuck is only 3 lbs, 2 oz. The 4 inch chuck is 7 lbs, 14 oz. I can actually feel the lathe jump as I turn it on with the big one. I'm worried that it might over stress the gear train or belts or bearings.

On the other hand, I imagine that it would be less likely to stall with that much mass spinning.

If you have wondered about the difference between a 3 inch and 4 inch chuck...
chuckbigsmall2.jpg


I'm thinking that I should mount the 4 inch only when necessary.

Daniel

P.S. I would not recommend H&H IP to anyone. Their prices are good, but their shipping department sucks. I bought twice. The first time the package went to the wrong city, the other time the wrong parts were included. Contacting them about shipping was not fruitful.
 

jtice

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man, its a bit longer than I thought it would be.

I have thought about getting one.
I find I have to swap my inside/outside chuck teeth more than i like.
 

gadget_lover

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Hi Pablo. That is 4 jaw individually adjusted. I've gotten pretty used to centering round stock, it takes less than a minute.

I didn't think it was that long either, until I acually installed it. The adapter plate adds 1/2 inch or so too. The certification sheet that comes with the chuck mentions a short cylinder version. I wonder what those dimensions are.

The jaws are longer, thicker and beefier than on the 3 inch chuck. Theory says there should be less chatter.

Daniel
 

unnerv

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I have not had any problem running my 4", other than the adapter plate had extra holes which at higher speeds caused vibration due to balance. I have heard that if you refill these holes it solves the problems. There are some guys that are useing 5 inch chucks on the mini-lathe.com chuck's page. So you will probably be alright.

Here is a pick of the 4 inch 4 jaw in my 3 jaw /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
chuck.jpg


I need to get more time on mine. To date I have spent more time moving mine in than I have making stuff on it.

Have fun Daniel, the 4 jaw is fun for making offset cuts as well as holding bigger stock.
 

gadget_lover

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Thanks for the encouraging words, Unnerv. It's nice to see others are using the bigger ones with no ill effects.

My customary setup uses the 3 inch, 4 jaw independent chuck. I've not used the stock chuck (3 jaw self centering) since I learned to center things in the 4 jaw.

So, is that an 8 inch on your Ta Shing lathe?

If I were to do it again, I'd buy the chuck and adapeter from littlemachineshop.com . The only reason I did it the way I did was the price. I got the chuck and adapter for $65 including shipping on e-bay, so I saved $20 or so. It only took me an extra 10 or 15 hours of bumbling around to make it work.

I did not notice any rotational imbalance on mine. It has all of it's holes equally spaced, so even though it's swiss cheeze, it's not un-balanced. I did fill the extraneous holes with epoxy.

Daniel
 

unnerv

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I got my 4" from littlemachinshop.com and the holes are not equally spaced which accounted for the vibration.

The 3 jaw in the pic is a 9 inch self centering. I have a 12 inch 4 jaw that is independently adjustable. The 4 jaw is about 45lbs, about half the weight of my whole 7x12 minilathe.
 

Anglepoise

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Personally I could not think of anything worse than having to use a 4 jaw independent as my everyday chuck.
But its all in what has to be held. 90% is round so for me there is no contest.
 

gadget_lover

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I can understand your point of view, Anglepoise. If I was swapping in a lot of parts I'd want to use the self centered type.

Once I got used to the 4 jaw independent, it became a question of whether it was worth it to swap to the the other chuck. It takes a lot less time to center a rod than it does to swap the chuck. Once it's centered there's no incentive to change it till next time. I find it easier to realign a part that's been re-chucked in the 4 jaw. My self centering chuck is off by just a thousandth, but when you put the part back in it's now off twice that unless you get the rod back in the exact same spot. Not a big deal, but frustrating when you don't expect it.

Maybe it's time to work with my little 3 jaw for a while, see if it was me or the chuck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Daniel
 

ABTOMAT

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Independant chucks have long been the everyday ones, since they allow better accuracy. A seasoned machinist should be able to adjust one dead on in 30 seconds with an indicator. I'm not one of them so it takes me forever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Don't worry about the weight. Cutting or knurling forces are much higher. If your bearings or spindle take a set from sitting with a heavy chuck, I'd take it as a sign your lathe is better a paperweight.

I run 8" 4-jaws, a 6" 3-jaw, and a rather heavy 5C collet chuck on my little 10" Atlas.
 

gadget_lover

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I use a technique that centers a rod in about 30 to 60 seconds, within a gnat's eyebrow. It uses just a dial indicator and magnet mount. I'll describe the technique if anyone wants me to.

It's good to hear that others do use the independant chucks too. I hadn't thought about the cutting forces being much more than the extra 5 pounds. Good point.

Daniel
 

OddOne

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Please do, Dan, as we all can use any little trickery we can come up with or get a description of. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

oO, who FINALLY got a dial indicator for use with his MicroMark 7x14...
 

gadget_lover

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The process is simple, and uses the barest amount of addition and subtraction. This post is long only because I went into excruciating detail. There are really only two key steps in the middle of the process. See if you can figure out which ones! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The tools? Just a dial indicator and magnetic stand. Harbor Freight has cheap dial indicators and stands on sale just about all the time. Under $15 for both in many cases.


Overview; Make sure the piece is round and straight. Put it in the chuck and adjust it by eyeball till it's close. Set up the dial indicator and adjust opposing jaws, alternately loosening and tightening till it has the same reading first on one pair, then all the way around.

All movement of the chuck is by hand.

detail
1) make sure your stock is round and straight. If it's not, it will be difficult to dial it in, and it won't matter too much anyway since you'll be making it round. Clean off any dirt, paint, etc that will add to the measured diameter.

2) Chuck up the stock and adjust it by eyeball till it's close. You can adjust it by several means;
o adjust till the ends of the jaws stick out the same amount on all sides
o adjust so the jaws are equally spaced where they meet in the middle
o use the rings on the face of the chuck as reference points.

On this picture you can see the jaws just about equal where they stick out of the chuck body and they are about the same using the jaw closest to the camera as a reference point.
eyeball2.jpg


I use a small (3 inch long) square piece of aluminum stock instead of the chuck key at this point, since I can spin it with one hand and rapidly move the jaws.

3) I mount the dial indicator (in a magnetic mount) on the cross slide and adjust the cross slide till the indicator's tip is where I want to measure. I move it front to back using the cross slide crank till it has it's highest reading (roughly).

This is the setup. Indicator and magnetic stand from HF.
setup9.jpg



4) Remember the math? You will use a little in this step. Rotate the chuck until you see the highest reading while one of the 4 jaws is straight up. It will not be the highest reading, that's likely to be between two jaws.

With that jaw straight up, make sure the jaw is snug (not tight) and make a mental note of the dial reading. In the picture it's about 89. We'll call that jaw A.

jawa.jpg



Rotate the chuck 180 degress so the bottom jaw becomes the top jaw. Take that reading. In the second picture it's about 67. We'll call that jaw B.
jawb.jpg



The number you should see when it's centered is 1/2 way between the two. You can calculate it by adding the two numbers (89 + 67) and divide by two or, if it's easier, subtract the lower reading from the higher, divide that by two and add to the lower number. In this case, the target is 78.

When rotating the chuck, always bring the jaw to the same position. In my case I use straight up.

5) Loosen the jaw with the lower number by just a touch. I like to back it off (counter clockwise) 1/8 of a turn and then gently tighten till it just makes contact again. You should see the dial change to something higher. If it's above your target, give it just the barest twist tighter.

6) Rotate the chuck 180 degrees and check the reading. If it's higher than your target, tighten it gently (clockwise), going back to step 5 as often as necessary till you get the same reading on both sides.

7) At this point jaws A and B are centered, so you want to rotate the jaws 90 degrees and go back to step 4 to take care of jaws C and D.


SUCESSS
When you are done, you should be able to rotate the chuck 360 degrees and see the same reading all the way around. You should also be able to move the carriage left and right and get the same readings. See?
centered.jpg



With a little practice this becomes a very quick operation. It comes out to measure, adjust, rotate, measure, adjust, rotate, measure, rotate, measure, smile, smile, smile.



Gotchas
a) If you have play in your chuck or bearings you will chase that last .001 all over the place.

b) If the stock is crooked, you can center the exact place you measure while the majority of the stock is off center. Moving the indicator left to right will show different readings.

c) If the stock is out of round, you can center it (equal readings on opposing jaws when the appropriate jaw is straight up) but it will cut on only one side at first when you start turning.

d) A gouge, burr or stray metal chip on the end of the stock in the jaws will make your stock slant. This will not slow down your centering, but it will cause the stock to be centered only at that one spot. See (b)

e) When all jaws are even you should make sure that all 4 jaws are snug, but not over tight. Remember, the jaws should not cut through a single layer of masking tape wrapped around your stock.

f) If your readings are jerky, check the dial indicator. I have one that needs lubing once in a while. I have another that I dropped 3 times, so it is not accurate until the plunger is 1/2 way depressed.

g) If the high and low readings go above and below the 0 point on your dial, lower the test indicator till they are on the same side. I find it helpful if the target is on the left hand side of the dial so that as I tighten, the needle goes down, and as I loosen it goes up.

h) Do NOT tighten jaws C and D while adjusting A and B. If C and D are tight AND out of position you will be fighting against them. C and D shuld be finger tight until A and B are done.

I hope this is clear enough. Let me know if I've transposed an up/down, or left and right. I tend to do that.

Daniel
 

gadget_lover

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No feedback must mean no typos. Good!


For the experts, what's the best way to indicate a piece with flats? For instance, turning a post into the end of a 4 rectangular bar as one might do to make an axle.

Daniel
 

Silviron

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Thanks for that Gadget / Daniel; especially the good photos. I have printed it out for hanging next to the lathe..... Your photos and explanation are a lot better than those in my "Machine Shop Practices" book or than I have seen on the various mini-lathe sites.

Just a few hours ago, I ordered a 14" extended bed and a 4 jaw independent chuck from littlemachineshop, so that info will really come in handy not too far down the road.
 

MoonRise

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Re: chucking a rectangular bar

Daniel,

For a non-round workpiece, you do the same basic idea of measure-adjust-rotate except that you have to be careful on the rotate step not to bugger your dial indicator. Depending on how much travel you have on the indicator, you may have to back the cross-slide out of the way when you rotate the workpiece to the next flat. You may have to measure in absolute instead of relative measurements, especially if you are doing an offset turning.
 

gadget_lover

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Re: chucking a rectangular bar

Glad it was useful, Silviron. I find that I do this procedure often enough that I've dedicated a cheap dial indicator and magnetic base to the task. It sits near the lathe on a metal plate. It takes only a moment to grab it and place it on the cross-slide.


Moonrise, do you do anything to make sure the part is at exactly 90 degrees when you measure it? I've noticed I tend to have it off a few degrees and that may skew the results. I've thought that maybe I should use a mechanics square to ensure that it's at the same orientation.

Daniel
 

MoonRise

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Re: chucking a rectangular bar

90 degrees so that the flat in question is exactly vertical or horzontal?

You could use a square to get the flat vertical, but it's not necessary. You already have the dial indicator! Before making any workpiece adjustments, wiggle the chuck rotation a smidge back and forth until the dial indicator reads a local minimum/maximum (depends on which way you have the dial indicator set-up). That is your 90 degree right there. Now measure-adjust-rotate-repeat.

But using a precision square across the bed ways would probably be faster and would be needed if you were doing offset turning of a square/rectangular/non-round workpiece.

BTW Daniel, look at my sig block. My screen name here at CPF is MoonRise, but my name in the sig block is Mike. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

gadget_lover

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Re: chucking a rectangular bar

Thanks for pointing that out, MIKE. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif With a round bar, the highest/lowest spot does not necessarily corespond to the jaws at 90 degrees. On the square piece it would.

Daniel
 

Chop

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Re: chucking a rectangular bar

For what it's worth, I use a 5" three jaw chuck for my everyday turning. I also have a 4" four jaw chuck but never use it. The self centering chuck is just faster.

I've been using it for quite a while now and haven't had any problems. I have, on the other hand, noticed quite a few advantages. It allows you to get a good grip on larger stock, since the chuck can accommodate a few inches within itself, inspite of the relatively small opening in the spindle. I've found that larger stock turns more smoothly, and I've also found that the larger teeth of the big chuck are less likely to mar the finish on pieces. I've actually chucked near finished pieces without even using masking tape on them to protect the finish. The larger teeth as just far less likely to mar the finish.
 
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