Bulb options for 4x LiIon

[2xTrinity]

I've recently been getting a lot of good use out of my 2C ROP and am now interested in building a hotwire that packs more punch using a 4C host. Is there anything out there that draws close to 5A at 14.8V (about 75 watts), I want to at least double the overall output of ROP-Hi. Feedback is appreciated.

 

[mdocod]

take a 12V 6000 hour halogen rated for 35W and get yourself a 5C and maybe an AW extender and run 5 li-ion cells. it'll become a ~75W at that drive level, drawing nearly 4 amps.

 

[2xTrinity]

take a 12V 6000 hour halogen rated for 35W and get yourself a 5C and maybe an AW extender and run 5 li-ion cells. it'll become a ~75W at that drive level, drawing nearly 4 amps.

Interesting, I may look into that, although I was trying to stick to 4C if at all possible, both due to the difficulty of finding 5C hosts (finding 4C even was quite hard), and the fact that I find 4C a fairly comfortable size, and any longer than that starts to get pretty awkward. The only reason I haven't considered 3C is that my peak power (as the cells can only go up to ~5A) is still a bit more constrained than I'd like.

4C is a fairly comfortable size IMO but it appears to be a "no mans land" in terms of bulb options. Are there any good bulbs at that voltage even if they are somewhat lower wattage, or are there just not many options at that drive voltage at all?

 

[mdocod]

a 12V 50W 2000 hour halogen will be a bit closer to what you are looking for. Or look for ~14V medical lamps rated 50-100 hours.

 

[Rommul]

take a 12V 6000 hour halogen rated for 35W and get yourself a 5C and maybe an AW extender and run 5 li-ion cells. it'll become a ~75W at that drive level, drawing nearly 4 amps.

Can you give us an example?

 

[jimjones3630]

Here is a 3C mod almost 2x brighter than rop ho

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172471

this 4C M@g is over 2000 tl. A123 x3 pak will also fit in 3D M@g

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172505

jim

 

[mdocod]

Can you give us an example?

shoot.. I know I have seen em in MR-16s at local stores...

on 5 C li-ions:
Here's a 10,000 hour, 12V, 35W xenon fill lamp: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=5993

There's lots of bulbs out there that CPF hasn't even really played with, seems like for whatever reason CPFers stick to medical lamps... I think there's a lot of potential in simple cheaper halogens that aren't sold as "medical" style lamps.

 

[Rommul]

shoot.. I know I have seen em in MR-16s at local stores...

on 5 C li-ions:
Here's a 10,000 hour, 12V, 35W xenon fill lamp: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=5993

There's lots of bulbs out there that CPF hasn't even really played with, seems like for whatever reason CPFers stick to medical lamps... I think there's a lot of potential in simple cheaper halogens that aren't sold as "medical" style lamps.

Thanks.

I think the main reason CPF people use certain classes of lamps has to do with the difficulty in finding appropriate sockets to house these exotic pin configurations.

 

[Northern Lights]

I've recently been getting a lot of good use out of my 2C ROP and am now interested in building a hotwire that packs more punch using a 4C host. Is there anything out there that draws close to 5A at 14.8V (about 75 watts), I want to at least double the overall output of ROP-Hi. Feedback is appreciated.

ROP high is about 500 torch lumens. You can get almost 900 torch lumens in a 2C with 2 AW lithium C cells and the 5761. RunS about 5.5 amps. If you follow all the links from the post by Jim Jones and me:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172284
you see there are a couple of variations to power up the 5761 from soft start by NTCs or driver.
JJ and I are working on a hotwire that will duplicate this in a 4C host:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=168564
The 64430 and its substitutes will ouput about 2250 torch lumens, hey that is 4+ times the ROP. By using a 4C cell and three a123 cells you have 9.9 volts, 2300 mAh on safe lithium, no fires & can be series charged.
The cell is a 26650, 65 mm long so that is why you need a 4C size, but it leaves room for a charging jack like this one:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170280 (btw this is a 2C 5761, 854 torch lumens).
I am putting the 64430 mod onto an AW soft start 4 mode driver. The bulb works at 9.6 Vbat but on paper is looks like it can take the 9.9 Vbat. If it can't when you run it without a driver an NTC will work:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170972 or
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172284
Or if you use a Vin=Vout driver as the AW is, a simple resistor in the tailcap, battery to ground, will work to bring the 9.9 back to 9.6 Volts.
The a123 batteries have the flattest discharge curve of anything used so far in modding.
a123:
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
search the key word in CPF: 64430 and 5761. There are a number of links that bounce around your subject. You easily can find a mod to fit your wants.

 

[Northern Lights]

Thanks.

I think the main reason CPF people use certain classes of lamps has to do with the difficulty in finding appropriate sockets to house these exotic pin configurations.

The KIU socket will handle the G4 and the G6.35 pins configurations that are 4mm center to center, .032" wire diameter and then 6.35 mm c to c and .039", 1mm wire diameter. AW and AWR drivers use the same socket as the KIU switch/socket.
FM makes a G4 pr to bipin sockets and another pr to bipin socket will probably be offered from another source shortly. These drop right in. The G4 and G6.35 are very common and standard to hundreds of bulbs from all makers, Carley, Welsh Allyn, Phillips, Osram, GE ,etc.
In any case whether you use a bipin or pr type of socket the standard switch needs a good deal of a make over to hard wire out the points of friction contact as there is too much native internal resistance in a standard switch to get any benefit over something more than a ROP drop in and even that will improve with switch and tail cap resistance modifications.
And I agree wholey with the problem of using specialty medical lamps. That was one of my gripes with the old standard M85 or WA1185, WA1111, Oor WA1160 type mods. The scarcity of sources was a negative then I found the projector bulb, Phillips 5761 available all over the place and in photo store too. And it was cheap, accessable and best of all it out performed the other bulbs like the wa1185.

 

[fivemega]

The KIU socket will handle the G4 and the G6.35 pins configurations that are 4mm center to center, .032" wire diameter and then 6.35 mm c to c and .039", 1mm wire diameter.

Most of G4 bulbs have 0.7mm (0.028") thick pins.
Some of 6.35 bulbs such as Osram 62138 and 64610 have 1mm (0.040") pin thickness while some others such as Osram 64623 and 64625 have 1.25mm (0.050") pin thickness.

 

[Northern Lights]

Most of G4 bulbs have 0.7mm (0.028") thick pins.
Some of 6.35 bulbs such as Osram 62138 and 64610 have 1mm (0.040") pin thickness while some others such as Osram 64623 and 64625 have 1.25mm (0.050") pin thickness.

Wow, that has got to make it difficult to design and make the great sockets that you make. Having dabbled in making connections and intergration of bulbs into lights to support my "experiments" has given me some understanding of what you are dealing with and it has given me a great respect and admiration for you and your designs and FM success in making available commerial products that are very reasonably priced. I do not think it is very obvious to most how interconnected the geometry of all the shapes and sizes of the lamps, sockets, reflectors and the sum of their part are. Having spent hours with a caliper in hand I have grown to respect the importance of a 1/2 milimeter and a thousanth of an inch. I have learned how FM product quality is taken for granted.
You are an inspiration and source of wisdom earned from experience. Thanks

 

[Rommul]

The KIU socket will handle the G4 and the G6.35 pins configurations that are 4mm center to center, .032" wire diameter and then 6.35 mm c to c and .039", 1mm wire diameter. AW and AWR drivers use the same socket as the KIU switch/socket.
FM makes a G4 pr to bipin sockets and another pr to bipin socket will probably be offered from another source shortly.

I didn't know the Kiu holds G6.35 bulbs. Thanks for the info. I already run a FM Golden Ceramic Socket in my Mag 11.

 

[2xTrinity]

Very interesting stuff, and thanks for the feedback everyone. I hadn't considered the 3xA123 cells, the extremely high power density (high current) is very interesting, but I don't like the idea of the low energy desnity of the A123s, which is nominally half that of the AW cells. If I'm going to need to cut my runtime in half to get twice as many lumens, I'd rather just stick to a 2C with a 5761 bulb than bother using a 4C. I was hoping to get both double the lumens and the same runtime as the ROP (as I would be using 4 cells vs 2)

It does make sense though that in order to get the really impressive results, I woudl need to seriously overdrive a 12V bulb -- and considering how unimpressive 12V bulbs are on the 13.7V coming out of my car's alternator, I can understand the need for 5 LiIon cells before things get interesting.

 

[mdocod]

look for a 12V medical lamp that has a 50 hour life rating and run it on 3 li-ion cells instead.

here's some examples:
http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/1100/oc/EPN/item.html
http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/130/oc/BRL/item.html

 

[RickB]

One bulb that comes to mind is the Osram 64610. It is a 12 volt bulb specced at 50 watts with a 50 hour life and 1600 bulb lumens. It may flash with four LiIon cells. Jimjones3630 says he flashed one on the bench with 15.08 volts in this thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162190

I don't have any personal experience with this bulb, but when I was putting together a plan for a 12-cell NiMH light, it was highly recommended to me for that application.

-Rick

 

[fivemega]

look for a 12V medical lamp that has a 50 hour life rating and run it on 3 li-ion cells instead.

Mentioned bulb won't be bright and white even if you run at 12 volt. Bulb won't get more than 11 volts when run by 3 "C" size li-ions.
I prefer WA1185 to use with 3xLi-ion

One bulb that comes to mind is the Osram 64610.

-Rick

Osram 64610 is 12 volt, 50 watt with 50 hours of life and WILL flash if powered by 4 AW's protected "C" cells.
Best choice for direct drive will be 12 volt, 50 watt, 100 hours bulb if you find any.

 

[FILIPPO]

what about osram 64611 HLX?

http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/2464/oc/64611 HLX/item.html

 

[Northern Lights]

Very interesting stuff, and thanks for the feedback everyone. I hadn't considered the 3xA123 cells, the extremely high power density (high current) is very interesting, but I don't like the idea of the low energy desnity of the A123s, which is nominally half that of the AW cells. If I'm going to need to cut my runtime in half to get twice as many lumens, I'd rather just stick to a 2C with a 5761 bulb than bother using a 4C. I was hoping to get both double the lumens and the same runtime as the ROP (as I would be using 4 cells vs 2)

It does make sense though that in order to get the really impressive results, I woudl need to seriously overdrive a 12V bulb -- and considering how unimpressive 12V bulbs are on the 13.7V coming out of my car's alternator, I can understand the need for 5 LiIon cells before things get interesting.

a123 cells are 2.3 Ah cells, AW lithium C are 3.3 Ah. That is not half and here is a nifty point that is just showing itself on the bench.
a123 have probably the flattest discharge curve of any battery we have used on CPF for mods.
Two a123 cells against two AW cells show a higher Vbulb just after start up than AW C cells. Jim Jones took those measurements. The AW cells calculate to a 36 minute run on 5761. Look at Mudman's discharge graph on this light and see what his run time is, 5761. Because the a123 cells hold a flat discharge and then drop they get on paper 25 minutes but you should have a brighter light all the way through the run. 25 minutes of a near constant almost regulated brightness opposed to a light that is on a constant dimming.
The power density is not a constant and changes against the load. a123 cells are rated I think at 70A continuous discharge rate, 30C, and the AW is 5 amps or 1.5C.
http://ilbcnu.org/file_share/anr26650m1specs.pdf
Mudman's:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=160048&highlight=5761

 

[RickB]

Osram 64610 is 12 volt, 50 watt with 50 hours of life and WILL flash if powered by 4 AW's protected "C" cells.
Best choice for direct drive will be 12 volt, 50 watt, 100 hours bulb if you find any.

Fivemega, thanks for the info.

what about osram 64611 HLX?

http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/2464/oc/64611 HLX/item.html

Good find! Exactly what fivemega suggested. Now, who's going to try it out?

-Rick