Can I use the Windows XP upgrade package to put XP on a Vista laptop?

[Stress_Test]

I recently got a Toshiba laptop with Vista Home Premium. I'd like to install XP as well, in a dual boot mode if possible.

So the question is, can I buy the ~100 dollar upgrade version of XP and use that, or do I need the complete "stand alone" XP package (~200 dollars).


As a computer/software ignoramus, I throw myself at the feet of the local CPF computer wizards!!

 

[mechBgon]

To use an Upgrade version, you'd need a vacant license to a qualifying previous version of Windows. Here's the lowdown on what qualifies for what: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/292607/en-us

With a full retail version, you don't need a qualifying previous version and you also may uninstall WinXP from the laptop later and then use that same WinXP on a different computer instead.

You could also consider an OEM WinXP license, which starts at $85-ish for XP Home Edition or $135-ish for XP Professional Edition. The catch is that OEM licensing isn't intended to migrate from one computer to another, so even if you uninstalled it from the Toshiba later, you're not supposed to use it again on any other computer ever. But hey, it's a 7-year-old OS, so maybe that's not much of an issue

Actually setting up an XP + Vista dual-boot would be easiest if you installed XP first, then installed Vista, because Vista's bootloader will recognize the dual-boot situation whereas XP's won't. If your need for WinXP is just 2D apps, you could consider installing Virtual PC 2007 on Vista, then install WinXP inside of Virtual PC, so you're running WinXP inside of Vista.

 

[Stress_Test]

Okay, good info, thanks for the reply.

I'm thinking I'll get the full on version of XP. (After all, if I'm gonna blow 100 bucks, might as well double it and make it 200!! haha).

Sooo, what about if I partition the harddrive and then install XP on the second partition?

 

[mechBgon]

Sooo, what about if I partition the harddrive and then install XP on the second partition?

To the best of my knowledge, the result will be that you can boot WinXP but not Vista, because WinXP's bootloader won't handle Vista. A repair-install of Vista afterwards might get you back in operation if you have a proper Vista DVD, but many pre-built computers don't come with an OS disc unless you go out of your way to get one, so I'm not sure if that'll be an option for you or not.

There's a command-line method of restoring the desired bootloader (namely Vista's), but I would need to dredge up my TechNet magazines and hunt for that, and it was confusing even to me

If this were a desktop computer then I'd have a great suggestion to bypass the whole issue entirely, but with a lappie, we have what we have, hardware-wise.

 

[DrunkenDonut]

There's a command-line method of restoring the desired bootloader (namely Vista's), but I would need to dredge up my TechNet magazines and hunt for that, and it was confusing even to me

Ugh. Don't waste time with bcdedit. If you want to poke around, there's a free program called EasyBCD from Neosmart that makes changing things real easy. You can make backups of the existing boot sector and loader configuration, etc. It's a frontend to bcdedit, and they have it figured out.

I also found the the more or less automatic fix from a Vista DVD works fine, I don't recall if it'll pick up your XP installation and add it to the boot menu. That doesn't matter much if it gets you back into Vista. If it's not there, just use EasyBCD afterwards.

If you don't have a Vista DVD, borrow one. It'll make life a lot easier. I don't recall if the OEM discs are different from the retail discs anymore (used to be the case with XP) but the important part is your key. This might sound shady but really isn't - if you have a legitimate key, you have a license (which is the important and expensive part) that you've already paid for. Media is cheap.

 

[Stress_Test]

Okay, I got the virtual PC program. Turns out that Vista Home version isn't "supported" but it seems to work ok as far as I can tell.

Now I can load XP into that program, right?

I figured this would be the best (easiest) option, because the stuff I need XP for won't need a lot of processor power or anything.

 

[NA8]

Bill Gates made a decision to limit virtualization to the top end Vista packages.

"buyers have to agree to Vista's licensing rules — a legally binding document. Lurking in that 14-page agreement is a ban on using the least expensive versions of Vista — the $199 Home Basic edition and the $239 Home Premium edition — in virtualization engines.

Instead, people wanting to put Vista in a virtualized program have to buy the $299 Business version or the $399 Ultimate package."

...

"The least-expensive versions of Vista actually would work in virtualization programs. But Microsoft wants to restrict it because of new security holes spawned by the technology, according to Scott Woodgate, a director in Microsoft's Vista team.

Lately Intel and rival chip-maker Advanced Micro Devices Inc. have built virtualization-friendly hooks directly into microprocessors. The goal was to make virtualization work better, but Woodgate argues that the move created a security flaw — essentially that malicious programs can run undetected alongside an operating system."
...

"Woodgate said Microsoft considered banning virtualizing Vista entirely, on all versions. But ultimately, he said, his team decided that the most technically savvy users, or people in companies with tech support, probably could handle Vista in virtualization programs, while home users should be steered away."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/02/22/financial/f065226S17.DTL

You need a processor that supports virtualization also. There's also some motherboards that hide the bios switch to enable virtualization.

What's especially humorous, are people who say there haven't been any security problems reported. The issue is they would be UNDECTABLE. Hence, none found or reported.

 

[mechBgon]

Exactly, just create a new Virtual Machine (in the New Virtual Machine wizard, click "Create a Virtual Machine"). Most of it's pretty self-explanatory.

Now begin baking a pizza. Start the Virtual Machine you created. In the Virtual Machine window, click CD at the top menu and have it use your physical CD or DVD drive, put in your WinXP CD. Click Action > Reset to reset the Virtual Machine, and now it should boot from the WinXP CD-ROM disc. Eat the pizza while WinXP gets set up

It can be useful to share a folder on the physical hard drive with the VM. To do so, click the folder icon at the bottom of the VM window to get to the necessary settings.

It's worth mentioning that the virtualized WinXP still needs its own security strategy. Your host OS (Vista) will not protect it from the majority of real-world dangers, and if the virtual OS becomes infected, it can attack your Vista installation and other computers, both locally and in the outside world. So I suggest most of the same security steps you'd do on a physical WinXP system: http://www.mechbgon.com/build/security2.html

One other suggestion for security: run the VM itself within a non-Admin user account on the host OS. Result: even a fully-successful exploit of the VM itself would only gain non-Admin privileges. This is just blanket good advice anyway, so maybe you're already there.

 

[mechBgon]

You need a processor that supports virtualization also. There's also some motherboards that hide the bios switch to enable virtualization.

Negative, chief. It works fine on processors that don't have hardware virtualization support, and I would know :thumbsup:

What's especially humorous, are people who say there haven't been any security problems reported. The issue is they would be UNDECTABLE. Hence, none found or reported.

I'm not sure who told you there "haven't been any security problems reported," but VMWare recently reported (and fixed) a serious vulnerability in VMWare that allows the guest OS to "break out," and there was a vuln identified in Microsoft Virtual PC 2004 a couple years ago that needed a patch too.

The more serious danger, in my view, would be using WinXP in a VM without realizing that (if compromised) it can then attack other computers, including the host OS, other VMs, other computers on the network and other computers on other networks. To wit, my advice in my previous post about securing the guest OS :tinfoil: Don't get cocky just because it's a virtual machine. On that note, I'll also add this advice: don't share more than you need to between the guest and host OSes (e.g. don't share your entire C: drive or something).

Oh, and home versions of Vista are now OK'ed for virtualization if that's what you want to do. I can dredge up the official announcement if you want to check it out, but that's the gist of it

 

[NA8]

Negative, chief. It works fine on processors that don't have hardware virtualization support, and I would know :thumbsup:

Are we talking about the same virtualization technology or some dual boot program ?

Oh, and home versions of Vista are now OK'ed for virtualization if that's what you want to do. I can dredge up the official announcement if you want to check it out, but that's the gist of it

No need to find the announcement, I'm not surprised

And thanks for the update.

 

[mechBgon]

Are we talking about the same virtualization technology or some dual boot program ?

I assume we're discussing Microsoft Virtual PC 2007, since that's what I suggested to him before. It doesn't require hardware-supported virtualization, which is a good thing since my malware-research rigs are too old to have those capabilities.

 

[NA8]

I assume we're discussing Microsoft Virtual PC 2007, since that's what I suggested to him before. It doesn't require hardware-supported virtualization, which is a good thing since my malware-research rigs are too old to have those capabilities.

Sorry, when he said his windows wasn't supported, I thought it was relevant, but obviously it wasn't. My bad.

 

[turbodog]

First rule of posting..... forgetting all about what the original question was.


There's another, better option.


Exercise your downgrade rights. Call MS for a free copy of XP. You'll have to pay shipping and a media fee (for the disk). It will be a similar product, windows home version. Vista business would get xp pro.

Legal.

Rare.

Specifically spelled out in MS's docs. It covers OSes and other things.

I use it fairly frequently.

 

[mechBgon]

First rule of posting..... forgetting all about what the original question was.


There's another, better option.


Exercise your downgrade rights. Call MS for a free copy of XP. You'll have to pay shipping and a media fee (for the disk). It will be a similar product, windows home version. Vista business would get xp pro.

Legal.

Rare.

Specifically spelled out in MS's docs. It covers OSes and other things.

I use it fairly frequently.

Yep, and here's the how-to if you need it: PDF file with info You actually don't (necessarily) need to get a disc from Microsoft, as you can see from the info there.

A couple things to note:

1) it's not irreversible. If you license Vista and downgrade to WinXP, you can go back to Vista later.

2) only OEM Vista Business or Ultimate editions qualify for downgrade rights. Retail-boxed variants don't, as strange as that may sound.

3) WinXP is not as secure as Vista and never will be, so don't forget to use WinXP's security capabilities to best advantage, which does make it pretty tight (non-Admin user accounts, Data Execution Prevention, Software Restriction Policy on XP Pro/MCE, etc).

Hope that helps

 

[Stress_Test]

Hm, I'm a bit worried about the security issues with the virtual pc. I would only be using it to run older software, not to surf the internet. So if I'm not on the internet with the virtual pc, am I safe or no?



Thanks to everyone for the help, btw.

 

[greenLED]

Definitely go back to XP. Vista smells of overloaded WinME fiasco.

3) WinXP is not as secure as Vista and never will be, so don't forget to use WinXP's security capabilities to best advantage, which does make it pretty tight (non-Admin user accounts, Data Execution Prevention, Software Restriction Policy on XP Pro/MCE, etc).

Hope that helps

Depends on how you define "security", I guess.

XP SP3 is just around the corner too!

 

[mechBgon]

Depends on how you define "security", I guess.

Having done a stint as a sysadmin, and quite a bit of malware research of my own, I define "security" in the way that you'd expect (maybe you could characterize the distinction as, "what bad stuff has the potential to happen?" rather than "what bad stuff did average home users actually notice happening?"). Something like 95% of WinXP-compatible malware fails to run properly or survive a reboot on a default Vista installation, according to Symantec's research. Can we work with that? :thumbsup:

XP SP3 is just around the corner too!

And unfortunately it will not have any of the security enhancements I suggested when my MVP contact asked us "What should SP3 for WinXP be like?" so WinXP will continue to be the last of the Win95 clones, leaving people holding unchecked Admin powers at all times "just because." The bad guys are undoubtedly relieved to hear it :thumbsdow

 

[mechBgon]

Hm, I'm a bit worried about the security issues with the virtual pc. I would only be using it to run older software, not to surf the internet. So if I'm not on the internet with the virtual pc, am I safe or no?

You're safer in some ways by not using the Internet from the WinXP installation in the VM, but the Internet isn't the only attack vector, any more than your front door is the only place a home invasion can occur. It doesn't take long to run through the normal security steps, so why not

edit: by the way, let me belatedly ask if you're aware that Vista has the ability to run software in WinXP compatibility mode, which might've saved you all this hassle if you just have some fussy old software to humor

 

[Stress_Test]

Well, one big thing is that I'd like to be able to run an older version of Office instead of having to buy the 2007 version.

Aside from that, there are some older games, some of which don't seem to want to work in "fullscreen" mode, which I'm not sure if that's a problem with Vista itself or the drivers for the widescreen display (the old software was for the standard size display).

I haven't gotten XP yet. Time is running out, I guess, but I'm on the fence about whether to just say screw it and bite the bullet and learn the new system (because I'll have to anyway in the near future).

 

[mechBgon]

Well, one big thing is that I'd like to be able to run an older version of Office instead of having to buy the 2007 version.

That actually shouldn't be an issue unless you're using, like, Office97 :sick2: Are you having problems, and if so, what version of Office is it, and what symptoms are you having? If you're having problems, make sure UAC is enabled, because it's not just a security measure... it also is a keystone of backwards-compatibility enhancements on Vista too. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, I can clarify.

Aside from that, there are some older games, some of which don't seem to want to work in "fullscreen" mode, which I'm not sure if that's a problem with Vista itself or the drivers for the widescreen display (the old software was for the standard size display).

You might want to get the full driver package from the maker of your GPU and look at the options for running non-widescreen-aware games on widescreen monitors, because you'll have that issue on WinXP too.

For example, I like the old Mechwarrior4 games (circa 1998) whence cometh my username and they aren't widescreen-aware, so I use the nVidia driver panel to have them run at proper 4:3 aspect ratio on my 16:10 monitor. Whether I boot into Vista or XP, same solution to the same issue. If you need help finding the right drivers, post or PM the specifics of your laptop brand & model and I can track them down.

I haven't gotten XP yet. Time is running out, I guess, but I'm on the fence about whether to just say screw it and bite the bullet and learn the new system (because I'll have to anyway in the near future).

As long as you can license OEM Vista Business or Ultimate, you can run WinXP in its place for as long as you feel like, so you have until at least... mmmm, probably 2010-2013 or so before time's really up (and even then, OEM Windows 7 Business might still come with downgrade rights to WinXP if you really want them). You'd need an extra OEM Vista Business/Ultimate license, a WinXP Pro disc (OEM or Retail is fine) and a compatible WinXP license key, then just call in to activate and tell them you're using downgrade rights and need the big old 42-digit activation string to get activation.