Creation and intelligence: beyond man

[McGizmo]

Hi guys,

There were discussions in the God and Science thread that were aimed at science proving or giving indication to signs that God or some form of intelligence, beyond mortal man has been, or is, involved in our universe. Beyond the scriptures cited as proof in themselves and beyond the "correct and only path to God", perhaps we can discuss, at a non specific spiritual level or agnostic or even from an athiestic point of reference, any advances in science or explorations where there seems to be something more than just the laws of physics at play.

In other words, without the need to convert others to our way of thinking and leaving salvation to other threads, can we discuss the possabilities and indications that there is intelligence or intent, beyond man, at work in our universe?

 

[NoShadow]

In other words, without the need to convert others to our
way of thinking and leaving salvation to other threads, can we discuss the possabilities and indications that there is intelligence or intent, beyond man, at work in our universe? -- McGizmo


The butler did it Mac......You are ever the seeker. You could trip over it and not have a clue where it is.

 

[chiaroscuro]

A tall order,McGizmo. Incessant biblical quotations are predicted, anyway. But I'm game if others are. Maybe this thread could be subtitled the "Beyond good and evil" thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
My understanding of physics and the scientific method is that Physics-- that is ,the study of the underpinnings of the physical world--is mutable,our ideas and theories evolve from paradigm to paradigm.
Does our current understanding of how the universe(more or less) functions,the current paradigm, leave room for god-like intelligence? Or is the idea of such an entity or entities simply a means of filling in the blanks in our knowledge--something to keep the bogeyman of our ignorance at bay? Does the idea of( or presence of) G** withdraw as knowledge advances?
Can anyone offer a scenario that would constitute proof( of a testable nature) of supra-human involvement? Would we know it if we saw it?
Well,anyway, a grab bag of questions to begin.

 

[BlindedByTheLite]

the great pyramid?

or how about the calendar of the Olmecs and Mayans? or their mathematic system?

 

[NoShadow]

You're jesting......."leave room for a god-like intelligence?" you say. My finite mind can't begin to embrace the arrogance of that comment. You should be grateful The Eternal Intelligence has decided to allow room for you. Your next heartbeat is a gift from God. Don't forget to thank Him.

 

[Nitro]

Duplicate post from Good & Evil, that belongs here.

Scientists now believe that space is not continuous. In other words, on a really small level, objects jump along like your mouse jumps along your monitor. It just looks as though it is moving smoothly.

Could the universe really be inside a giant computer?

And who or what is running it?

 

[chiaroscuro]

I'm not jesting,NoShadow. You have no idea how arrogant I can be. Please spare me your lack of imagination. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
Nitro,a computer need not have a sentient designer or operator. If information storage and retrieval
mechanisms like DNA can evolve in the natural world (if you can conceive of
this forming without an intelligent creative force),why not a universal computer ?

 

[Nitro]

I'm not suggesting anything, just asking questions.

However, I do beg to differ. A computer DOES need someone or something to operate/program it. Without a program (or set of rules), a computer is nothing more then an expensive paper weight.

 

[chiaroscuro]

Granted,Nitro, if by computers we are simply talking about what we are both using to participate in this forum. I was talking about computers in the broader sense of the word--structures/processes that retain,organize and output information.

 

[Nitro]

Then the question becomes, does it take intelligence to create a process/structure to retain, organize and output information? Does it not take intelligence to recognize the process and information exists?

 

[bwcaw]

If you study science and also the law of entropy it is pretty obvious that evolution is a total farce. Things just don't get better over time, everybody knows this. For instance your car doesn't change into a more efficient vehicle over time, and wouldn't even if you left it for a million years. Anywho, it seems to me that anybody who believes evolution is just trying to hide from the obvious.

 

[Greta]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! GOOD THREAD!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I'm glued... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

 

[14C]

Some say God made Man is his image.

I say Man makes God is HIS image.

 

[McGizmo]

bwcaw,

Interesting points! As I understand it, beyond atomic bonds and some other systems that are in a state of equilibrium, most organized systems continually need energy to remain in stasis. For something to become more organized or complicated, I would suppose that not only additional energy would be required but perhaps intervention and creation as well?

I recall reading where worms that learned a maze were fed to other worms who immediately "knew" the maze. Was this an urban legend or legit? I ask because perhaps man *can* evolve if not only do we pass on our genitic code to offspring but learned and changed aspects as well? Put another way, is the genetic code altered by life experience? If yes, evolution seems more plausable than relying solely on mutations as well as survival of the fittest as "fittest" might change due to changes in the environment.

 

[Empath]

Hopefully this thread won't end up being another evolution vs creation discussion. However, the "law of entropy" you're referencing is part of the laws of thermodynamics. The entropy occurs in a closed system. As long as an external source of energy is being applied, entropy doesn't apply. In fact, energy when applied to a system finds ways of storing it's potential through some very elaborate and sophisticated appearing methods. Actually, with much energy reaching the earth being stored through biological systems, one wonders what sort of elaborate storage methods are in play on other worlds. The energy striking a planet that isn't reflected or radiated is converted to some form of more stable energy storage. Energy doesn't simply disappear.

 

[LitFuse]

[ QUOTE ]
bwcaw said:
If you study science and also the law of entropy it is pretty obvious that evolution is a total farce. Things just don't get better over time, everybody knows this. For instance your car doesn't change into a more efficient vehicle over time, and wouldn't even if you left it for a million years. Anywho, it seems to me that anybody who believes evolution is just trying to hide from the obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if using a car as an example is a good way to debunk the theory of evolution. Shouldn't the item in question at least be a living thing? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


Peter

 

[Nitro]

I don't believe there's any doubt that life evolves. The question is, did it create itself?

 

[StuU]

[ QUOTE ]
bwcaw said:
If you study science and also the law of entropy it is pretty obvious that evolution is a total farce. Things just don't get better over time, everybody knows this.

[/ QUOTE ]

bmcaw-
The evolutionary process doesn't produce constantly "better" or more complex organisms. What happens is that organisms evolve to better suit the alway changing conditions of the outside environment- so it is just as likely to produce a simpler organism as a more complex one.

And the tooth-and-claw model of the early years of Darwinian theory are obsolete. Survival may be better assured by evolution of effective social relationships and accompanying mental orientation for such.

 

[McGizmo]

For the sake of this thread, if not the sake of the participants, can we take evolution to mean change in conditions within the universe over time; manifest in say "aging" planets or change in characteristics of bilogical entities? A quantifiable progression or regression, as it were.

"The entropy occurs in a closed system" Fair enough. I always took it that the universe itself *is* a closed system so that energy reaching us from space is indicative of less energy from whence it came?

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

Actually Creation and Evolution go together. They are not mutually exclusive. Think about it.