Nitro
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
Then the question becomes, where does the energy go, and better yet, how did it get there to begin with?
Creation and intelligence: beyond man
- Thread starter McGizmo
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
So, how much energy is required to run the brain? Could it be that when you die that the resistance in the nuro paths is such that the energy is not enough to complete the necessary circuits? Meaning the energy is still there but not flowing?
[ QUOTE ]
Frangible said:
-- near-death experiences; there is no explanation for how a consistent phenomena happens when there is little brain activity and the brain is "unconcious", yet it is well-documented and proven. By definition, it is not possible to store memory while unconcious... yet it is done here.
[/ QUOTE ]
There has been a lot of interest here. This phenomenon has been best explained by the release of morphine-like brain chemicals which appear as the body begins to shut down in anticipation of death. Some of these experiences have been closely duplicated by the placing of electrical stimulation in the right areas of the brain.
There are some medical researchers who have tried experiments in hospital death situations. To test the claimed experience of rising from one's body and looking down on the scene, researchers have placed written signs in an upside down position so that anyone who has actually left their body could read a singular message. I haven't heard of any near-death patients being able to recall such a written message upon recovery.
None of this has been exhaustively dealt with and conclusions about the validity of such claims are probably tentative. There does seem to be a connection between one's beliefs ie Jesus, Mohammed etc to the entity claimed to have been encountered on the "other side".
Frangible said:
-- near-death experiences; there is no explanation for how a consistent phenomena happens when there is little brain activity and the brain is "unconcious", yet it is well-documented and proven. By definition, it is not possible to store memory while unconcious... yet it is done here.
[/ QUOTE ]
There has been a lot of interest here. This phenomenon has been best explained by the release of morphine-like brain chemicals which appear as the body begins to shut down in anticipation of death. Some of these experiences have been closely duplicated by the placing of electrical stimulation in the right areas of the brain.
There are some medical researchers who have tried experiments in hospital death situations. To test the claimed experience of rising from one's body and looking down on the scene, researchers have placed written signs in an upside down position so that anyone who has actually left their body could read a singular message. I haven't heard of any near-death patients being able to recall such a written message upon recovery.
None of this has been exhaustively dealt with and conclusions about the validity of such claims are probably tentative. There does seem to be a connection between one's beliefs ie Jesus, Mohammed etc to the entity claimed to have been encountered on the "other side".
Nitro
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
[ QUOTE ]
Lebkuecher said:
So, how much energy is required to run the brain? Could it be that when you die that the resistance in the nuro paths is such that the energy is not enough to complete the necessary circuits? Meaning the energy is still there but not flowing?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite. Think about a battery discharging. A full battery has potential energy. A discharging battery has kinetic energy. However a dead battery has neither.
Also,what about the fire burning out? Dead people produce no heat.
Lebkuecher said:
So, how much energy is required to run the brain? Could it be that when you die that the resistance in the nuro paths is such that the energy is not enough to complete the necessary circuits? Meaning the energy is still there but not flowing?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite. Think about a battery discharging. A full battery has potential energy. A discharging battery has kinetic energy. However a dead battery has neither.
Also,what about the fire burning out? Dead people produce no heat.
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
Think about a battery that is almost dead and will not fire a incandescent light, because of the energy requirements. Put it in a LED and it works. The point being that the energy left in the battery wasn't strong enough to the job but it was there.
Nitro
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
I suppose there's a little energy left. However, over time a battery will eventually drain completely.
When the brain is starved of enough oxygen the cells die and can no longer function. They will never function again if oxygen is restored.
There is a state of unconciousness right before death, during which it is possible to revive the brain if it gets more oxygen, but brain damage is possible here.
Starving the brain of oxygen is the principle method of death in animals. Consider getting shot... you bleed until you can no longer supply the brain with enough oxygen at which point you die.
However, just because the brain is dead, doesn't mean the rest of the body is (immediately anyway). It takes the rest of your body some time to die, thus organs are still living and harvested for transplants.
The brain's really, really, really oxygen hungry though, and the cells die very quickly without it.
It's not comparable to a battery or computer at all.
There is a state of unconciousness right before death, during which it is possible to revive the brain if it gets more oxygen, but brain damage is possible here.
Starving the brain of oxygen is the principle method of death in animals. Consider getting shot... you bleed until you can no longer supply the brain with enough oxygen at which point you die.
However, just because the brain is dead, doesn't mean the rest of the body is (immediately anyway). It takes the rest of your body some time to die, thus organs are still living and harvested for transplants.
The brain's really, really, really oxygen hungry though, and the cells die very quickly without it.
It's not comparable to a battery or computer at all.
Nitro
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
I think we are comparing the "soul" to energy, not necessarily the body to a battery.
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think the bigger question is what happens to the energy in the brain when you die. I think that it dissipates into the environment.
Nitro
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
I think the bigger question is how did it get there in the first place.
As a non provable data point, I once had a well respected psychic explain to me that the "soul" (that organized system of energy having our recorded "experience" or sentience) enters the body sometimes well after a baby has been born. Further, she explained, that on some occasions, a body is not selected or taken for use. She credited some of the cases of SIDS to this. She appearantly has been able to see peoples aura's since a child and she further claims to be in contact with spirits and "guides" who are not currently living in the physical. In a reading she gave my first wife, without prompting, she told my then wife that her father was there in spirit. She went on to describe the surrounds of where my first wife's father had died. She went on to describe some rocks and kelp. My first wife, 13 at the time went on a scuba dive of the family's boat with her father and a local diver off Baha. They all agreed to meet at the anchor. The father never came to the anchor and his body was never found. Needless to say, this was a trama for my first wife that she is still likely dealing with. The psychic, to the best of my knowledge, had no idea or knowledge of this "episode". She told my first that her father (she named him), wanted her to know that everything was OK.
According to this same psychic, when a person is near theend of their physical life, the aura she sees shrinks and in fact will disapear completely prior to death; sometimes by a matter of days. Some physicians of terminal patients have used her on consultations for her "take" on a patient's state of affairs.
Whenever I had a chance to talk to her, I was always full of doubt and questions. She told my mother that she enjoyed our exchanges. This woman claims to be able to look at a black and white photograph and see auras as well as other things that "normal" people don't see. One of her students once showed her a clipping of a family posed together and asked her if she recognized the people in the photograph. She didn't but asked the student if this family was still alive. The reason she asked, she explained to me, was that she sees the aura of the person as it was at the time the photo was taken and not the condition of the aura at present. In this particular clipping, none of the people pictured had a life aura present. The student explained to this psychic that the photograph had been taken of a family a few days prior to them being gunned down by a "random" shooter. The psychic told me this story and then suggested that I consider if the shooting was in actuality, random. She suggested that contrary to conventional wisdom and social convention, that the shooter perhaps had sacrificed his well being in this life as an "agent" of some "higher" program. He was simply the means by which this group of people were able to exit their present incarnations. Now I realize that this is all out there in left field and complete hearsay. Anyone reading this has no experience with me or the people I have mentioned. I have no proof of veracity nor do I take any of this as pure fact. I also have a strong conviction in the character of this psychic and I have no reason to believe there was any reason for fabrication. For me personally, this is more real and subject to consideration than old text originating from sources unknown to me. If this psychic can perceive the things she claims, then I have hope that these perceptions can be perceived by equipment made by man at some point and possibly mapped and/or understood to some extent, if not verified. I do trust and believe that even though I can't see radio waves or light of frequencies beyond the visible, these levels and waves of energy do exist and in fact, with tools, have been put to use and demonstrated.
I am confident that with advances in technology, new discoveries will be made and with them more questions will be formed. However, even though there will always be questions, the base of knowledge is sure to grow and at some point it may well be accepted, beyond an act of faith, that there is some hand or being behind the creation. Further, it might just be demonstrated that some part of us does trancend the physical. I would further suggest that if there is a propensity of benevolence in the universe, such discoveries and information will likely surface at a time when man, more or less, is at a position in his "growth" to accept such knowledge and not abuse or misuse it.
For the survival of mankind as a species, I propose that a well based "fear of God" is much more likely to insure survival than a society bankrupt of any moral or ethical constructs; something possible if it were widely accepted that there is no accountability required for ones actions. I suspect that many fear the latter and will embrace the former as a means, regardless of what they might actually believe. When a person, especially in power, seems to behave as they consider themselves "above the rules", it is likely that they *do* consider themselves either above the rules or that the rules are ultimately arbitrary.
According to this same psychic, when a person is near theend of their physical life, the aura she sees shrinks and in fact will disapear completely prior to death; sometimes by a matter of days. Some physicians of terminal patients have used her on consultations for her "take" on a patient's state of affairs.
Whenever I had a chance to talk to her, I was always full of doubt and questions. She told my mother that she enjoyed our exchanges. This woman claims to be able to look at a black and white photograph and see auras as well as other things that "normal" people don't see. One of her students once showed her a clipping of a family posed together and asked her if she recognized the people in the photograph. She didn't but asked the student if this family was still alive. The reason she asked, she explained to me, was that she sees the aura of the person as it was at the time the photo was taken and not the condition of the aura at present. In this particular clipping, none of the people pictured had a life aura present. The student explained to this psychic that the photograph had been taken of a family a few days prior to them being gunned down by a "random" shooter. The psychic told me this story and then suggested that I consider if the shooting was in actuality, random. She suggested that contrary to conventional wisdom and social convention, that the shooter perhaps had sacrificed his well being in this life as an "agent" of some "higher" program. He was simply the means by which this group of people were able to exit their present incarnations. Now I realize that this is all out there in left field and complete hearsay. Anyone reading this has no experience with me or the people I have mentioned. I have no proof of veracity nor do I take any of this as pure fact. I also have a strong conviction in the character of this psychic and I have no reason to believe there was any reason for fabrication. For me personally, this is more real and subject to consideration than old text originating from sources unknown to me. If this psychic can perceive the things she claims, then I have hope that these perceptions can be perceived by equipment made by man at some point and possibly mapped and/or understood to some extent, if not verified. I do trust and believe that even though I can't see radio waves or light of frequencies beyond the visible, these levels and waves of energy do exist and in fact, with tools, have been put to use and demonstrated.
I am confident that with advances in technology, new discoveries will be made and with them more questions will be formed. However, even though there will always be questions, the base of knowledge is sure to grow and at some point it may well be accepted, beyond an act of faith, that there is some hand or being behind the creation. Further, it might just be demonstrated that some part of us does trancend the physical. I would further suggest that if there is a propensity of benevolence in the universe, such discoveries and information will likely surface at a time when man, more or less, is at a position in his "growth" to accept such knowledge and not abuse or misuse it.
For the survival of mankind as a species, I propose that a well based "fear of God" is much more likely to insure survival than a society bankrupt of any moral or ethical constructs; something possible if it were widely accepted that there is no accountability required for ones actions. I suspect that many fear the latter and will embrace the former as a means, regardless of what they might actually believe. When a person, especially in power, seems to behave as they consider themselves "above the rules", it is likely that they *do* consider themselves either above the rules or that the rules are ultimately arbitrary.
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
Energy is all over the environment, If you want to get technical then it comes from Photosynthesis, Energy is stored in complex carbon molecules manufactured from the photo system one and two process and is dispersed when you brake that molecule up.
Unfortunately, noshadow, you seem to have problems with anyone questioning assumptions of the role of G** (if any) in the universe ........end of quote.
Problems? No, no problems. As with matters eternal,here also, you begin with a false assumption. I don't see where you would even think I had a problem. I disagree with you and I seem certain of what I believe..which I am. In all of us..humankind that is..there is a built-in void which only the Creator can fill. I have allowed God to fill the void which existed in my heart. By His spirit He gives the assurance that it is the truth. You have chosen to look for 'evidence' to establish whether or not there is God. I suspect when something you discover even begins to hint there might be God,you attribute it to evolution or some other man-made explanation for how it came to be. It's the way of sinful man since the creation. Remember, Adam tried to hide his disobiedience with a leaf rather than step up and confess he had disobeyed and ask God how he may be forgiven. No, no problem. But I appreciate your concern. I am sure of another thing I would like to share. You are searching in vain for the origin of things apart from God the Creator of Genesis 1:1. If I have a problem it is this. It is disturbing to see you stumbling along looking to uncover the source of all things when all you have to do is humble yourself and ask Him to make Himself real to you. He is on record as never turning a sincere applicant away. If and until you do this, you will not understand and ,most likely be intolerant of, the Christians' certainty that he has found the one,true God. I've been there. Experience is a good teacher if we learn the lesson being taught.
You are asking questions---energy can neither be created nor destroyed---where does it go?---where did it come from in the first place?---
There is nothing wrong with the questions. To many , many questions man has had since the beginning of man, God has lovingly given the answers. 'Science' is really nothing more than man studying and discovering what God has created. True science will never conflict with the word of God. True science is the key phrase there. Much has been labeled science with has nothing to do with truth. Have you ever wondered why--if man is convinced there is no god--he spends so much energy trying to disprove his existence? It's a good question for my next post.
Enjoy your searching. If ever you become weary from it, keep in mind that He said," Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest."
Problems? No, no problems. As with matters eternal,here also, you begin with a false assumption. I don't see where you would even think I had a problem. I disagree with you and I seem certain of what I believe..which I am. In all of us..humankind that is..there is a built-in void which only the Creator can fill. I have allowed God to fill the void which existed in my heart. By His spirit He gives the assurance that it is the truth. You have chosen to look for 'evidence' to establish whether or not there is God. I suspect when something you discover even begins to hint there might be God,you attribute it to evolution or some other man-made explanation for how it came to be. It's the way of sinful man since the creation. Remember, Adam tried to hide his disobiedience with a leaf rather than step up and confess he had disobeyed and ask God how he may be forgiven. No, no problem. But I appreciate your concern. I am sure of another thing I would like to share. You are searching in vain for the origin of things apart from God the Creator of Genesis 1:1. If I have a problem it is this. It is disturbing to see you stumbling along looking to uncover the source of all things when all you have to do is humble yourself and ask Him to make Himself real to you. He is on record as never turning a sincere applicant away. If and until you do this, you will not understand and ,most likely be intolerant of, the Christians' certainty that he has found the one,true God. I've been there. Experience is a good teacher if we learn the lesson being taught.
You are asking questions---energy can neither be created nor destroyed---where does it go?---where did it come from in the first place?---
There is nothing wrong with the questions. To many , many questions man has had since the beginning of man, God has lovingly given the answers. 'Science' is really nothing more than man studying and discovering what God has created. True science will never conflict with the word of God. True science is the key phrase there. Much has been labeled science with has nothing to do with truth. Have you ever wondered why--if man is convinced there is no god--he spends so much energy trying to disprove his existence? It's a good question for my next post.
Enjoy your searching. If ever you become weary from it, keep in mind that He said," Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest."
Leb,
Except in the case of the tube worms hanging around the thermal vents in the ocean. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BTW, I believe we consider the flow of electrons and photons as the agents of energy, yes? Isn't it possible that sub atomic particles of certain types are also capable of similar behavior and "energy"? Sorry, I admit to not being even qualified to speculate on most of these levels. Ignorance is a blank canvas on which fantasy can be created! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Except in the case of the tube worms hanging around the thermal vents in the ocean. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BTW, I believe we consider the flow of electrons and photons as the agents of energy, yes? Isn't it possible that sub atomic particles of certain types are also capable of similar behavior and "energy"? Sorry, I admit to not being even qualified to speculate on most of these levels. Ignorance is a blank canvas on which fantasy can be created! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
Mcgizmo
Your referring to chemosynthesis, Actually this process is thought to have been in place before photosynthesis. The only thing about sub atomic particles is that the life expectancy is so short and you have to have a dead on collision to create them. I'm not sure that the event is consistent enough in a natural environment to asset life or support the process
Your referring to chemosynthesis, Actually this process is thought to have been in place before photosynthesis. The only thing about sub atomic particles is that the life expectancy is so short and you have to have a dead on collision to create them. I'm not sure that the event is consistent enough in a natural environment to asset life or support the process
Noshadow,
Since God granted man free will, I thank you for extending the same. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif It may be the will of some of us to question prior to deciding to "come inside". Perhaps if we come inside of our own accord or what you might consider at the grace of God, we might decide to "stay" inside. I entered a couple times but found myself, once again outside. It's not that I don't see value inside, it's just that I seem to be an outdoors type person, especially when the conditions are nice. It's against my nature to run inside out of fear and I would hope to conquer that fear.
I started this thread with the subject of creation and intelligence; beyond man. I guess many of you might suggest that I consider finding some ounce of intelligence within prior to searching that which is beyond! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think it's time to get back to the garage and some simple tinkering. I hope the rest of you guys keep posting with insight and good questions! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
EDIT: Thanks Leb for the factoids! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Since God granted man free will, I thank you for extending the same. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif It may be the will of some of us to question prior to deciding to "come inside". Perhaps if we come inside of our own accord or what you might consider at the grace of God, we might decide to "stay" inside. I entered a couple times but found myself, once again outside. It's not that I don't see value inside, it's just that I seem to be an outdoors type person, especially when the conditions are nice. It's against my nature to run inside out of fear and I would hope to conquer that fear.
I started this thread with the subject of creation and intelligence; beyond man. I guess many of you might suggest that I consider finding some ounce of intelligence within prior to searching that which is beyond! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think it's time to get back to the garage and some simple tinkering. I hope the rest of you guys keep posting with insight and good questions! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
EDIT: Thanks Leb for the factoids! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
chiaroscuro
Enlightened
Subatomic particles may not assist in the formation or maintenance of Life as Lebkuecher states.Perhaps consciousness or(and?) the soul, ultimately resides in something dictated by the behavior of the subatomic constituents of atoms. Where everyday newtonian physics begins to break down and quantum mechanics takes over.
There is a fabulous book by Roger Penrose from the late 80's called "The Emperor's New Mind " which offers some intriguing insights in this area.
Great post McGizmo. Do come back to the thread.
There is a fabulous book by Roger Penrose from the late 80's called "The Emperor's New Mind " which offers some intriguing insights in this area.
Great post McGizmo. Do come back to the thread.
Charles Bradshaw
Flashlight Enthusiast
[ QUOTE ]
NoShadow said:
[ QUOTE ]
chiaroscuro said:
I'm not jesting,NoShadow. You have no idea how arrogant I can be. Please spare me your lack of imagination. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
Imagine this when you have the time. Imagine you spending an eternity without God never having the answers to all the questions you have while those who believed and received eternal life are being given the answers by the One who created it all. I can imagine the destiny of those who believed God will be wonderful beyond description while the darkness of those who chose to reject His offer of everlasting life with Him will be unspeakably horrible. I imagine it is far better to know the One who has all the answers than to have the answers without Him. I imagine no matter how hard you try you will not be able to begin to imagine 'eternity' separated from God. Finally, I imagine you will refer to all of this as a lack of imagination. Imagine that!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sasha, I have been through pastlife regression and I have the Master Recording of that session. The information on that tape is enough to get me imprisoned as a Clear and Present Danger to ALL Governments on this planet: My Identity, plus certain other things, none of which are evil or bad, but present a threat to those who actually run things on Earth.
Reincarnation was accepted in the time of Jesus, but tossed out by those who desire to conceal the truth in order to control the populace.
NoShadow said:
[ QUOTE ]
chiaroscuro said:
I'm not jesting,NoShadow. You have no idea how arrogant I can be. Please spare me your lack of imagination. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
Imagine this when you have the time. Imagine you spending an eternity without God never having the answers to all the questions you have while those who believed and received eternal life are being given the answers by the One who created it all. I can imagine the destiny of those who believed God will be wonderful beyond description while the darkness of those who chose to reject His offer of everlasting life with Him will be unspeakably horrible. I imagine it is far better to know the One who has all the answers than to have the answers without Him. I imagine no matter how hard you try you will not be able to begin to imagine 'eternity' separated from God. Finally, I imagine you will refer to all of this as a lack of imagination. Imagine that!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sasha, I have been through pastlife regression and I have the Master Recording of that session. The information on that tape is enough to get me imprisoned as a Clear and Present Danger to ALL Governments on this planet: My Identity, plus certain other things, none of which are evil or bad, but present a threat to those who actually run things on Earth.
Reincarnation was accepted in the time of Jesus, but tossed out by those who desire to conceal the truth in order to control the populace.
Charles Bradshaw
Flashlight Enthusiast
True Science, huh? NoShadow proves the point I was going to make about Fundies.
If Science is Contrary, it is the Work of The Devil! If Science supports their narrow and intolerant view (such as it is), then it is the Work of God!
If GOD appeared to any Fundie and told them they were WRONG, they would believe GOD was The Devil. IF The Devil appeared to them and told them they were RIGHT, they would believe The Devil was in fact: GOD!
If Science is Contrary, it is the Work of The Devil! If Science supports their narrow and intolerant view (such as it is), then it is the Work of God!
If GOD appeared to any Fundie and told them they were WRONG, they would believe GOD was The Devil. IF The Devil appeared to them and told them they were RIGHT, they would believe The Devil was in fact: GOD!
Lebkuecher
Flashlight Enthusiast
A true scientist wouldn't offer an opinion as to the existence of God by definition. There is no way to apply the scientific method to prove your hypothesis on way or the other.
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.
I as an individual who seeks the truth find it's very difficult to come to terms this. There are so many religions and gods and of course everyone from the religious group beliefs that they are right regardless of which god or religion they believe in. Even the Bible has inconsistency about creationism so it's hard for me to take one part of the Bible as truth when it's contradicted some where else. The scientific knowledge base at this point offers no conclusive answers so it's like the circle never ends. I think the only way I will ever know is when I die. Hmm, That's not a very pleasant thought.
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.
I as an individual who seeks the truth find it's very difficult to come to terms this. There are so many religions and gods and of course everyone from the religious group beliefs that they are right regardless of which god or religion they believe in. Even the Bible has inconsistency about creationism so it's hard for me to take one part of the Bible as truth when it's contradicted some where else. The scientific knowledge base at this point offers no conclusive answers so it's like the circle never ends. I think the only way I will ever know is when I die. Hmm, That's not a very pleasant thought.
