Cycle Testing Observations…

SilverFox

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I just remembered that the Ray O Vac IC3 15 minute charger was packaged with 2000 mAh cells.

I think the first batch of Energizer 15 minute chargers were supplied with 2200 mAh cells.

I was checking around and there are still some 2000 mAh cells available (other than the Eneloop cells). I may have to pick some up and see if they are any good.

The self discharge rate on normal 2000 mAh cells is lower than the higher capacity cells, so I wonder how they compare to the Eneloop cells...

A new round of self discharge testing may be in the works... :)

Tom
 

NiOOH

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Tom,

Here in Europe there are plenty of lower capacity cells to be found, from Sanyo, Panasonic, GP and Varta.
 

WildChild

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I guess it's only a matter of preference and needs. I think most people don't even know and care about batteries with more capacity dying after 100 cycles. If they go for a trip, they probably want to charge less often so capacity is better. Also, they probably don't care about fast charging killing batteries earlier because people are always in a hurry when they need something so for them faster is better. If it die, they will only replace it not thinking how many cycles they did before it happened. Anyway, about 15 cycles is enough to cover the price of buying only alkaline batteries. Every cycles after this is money saved.

But, there is still a market for strong batteries that won't die too early. A lot of devices that need rechargeable batteries are made so it should be replaced as late as possible (electric razor, wireless phones). These devices still use NiCd or low capacity NiMH because they are stronger and last longer, even if they have a lower capacity. People don't care about the time their telephone will last before needing to be charged again, they will probably charge it at night or every 2-3 days and it will always be OK for them. If the Eneloop are really what Sanyo said, I think they are probably the best of both world. Batteries that have enough capacity, that will last longer than higher capacity ones and that have a very low self discharge rate for NiMH! They shouldn't push them for more capacity and keep them excellent like they are. Based on SilverFox tests, they are able to sustain high current (10A) while keeping voltage, they seems really good like Sanyo said with their low self discharge rate and they probably handle more cycles than high capacity one.

All this is based on my point of view! I will still keep some high capacity batteries even if they are weaker and I will still use my Energizer 15 minute charger because I don't always have time to wait for batteries to charge. Now, I'm waiting some Eneloop to test them. I'm pretty sure I will enjoy them. Also, I have seen 8 Energizer 2500 mAh batteries die because they self-discharged in about 1 week, and this after only 4-5 cycles and this show that it is probably more difficult to make high quality product while trying to push the limits. I also have some Sanyo 2500 mAh and some Duracell 2650 mAh batteries that have yet to show signs of high self-discharge after maybe 10 cycles each. If they discharge by themselves in about 1 month, I probably will never notice it because it often takes me less than this time to use them.

As a final word, like I said, there will always be a market for high capacity NiMH and lower capacity ones that are stronger and will last longer. Both kind should always be made by manufacturers if they want to do money and everyone to be happy! ;)
 

bob_ninja

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Yeah, but the trouble is the lacking this knowledge I used to assume that higher capacity batteries can supply more power at a higher rate (just a common sense, which doesn't work all the time ;)
I simply assumed that a 2.5Ah Energizer can provide far more power at a high rate (high current draw) than a smallish 0.7Ah NiCd. Of course, now I know better, but I was puzzled for some time beforehand.

I have a couple of cats and a 1 year old kid, so my dustbuster is very busy :(:( After its NiCds died I modified it to use AAs. At first I used Energizers 2.5Ah, then tried Sanyos 2.5Ah. It just didn't work well at all and batteries didn't last. Then I tried 0.8Ah NiCd and wolla, works like a champ but didn't last. After reading this forum I tried 2Ah batteries the other day. Some are older some are brand new, not even broken in yet. Again, works great albeit short run time (because of the new batteries that I need to break in)

So seems to me 2Ah are far more robust. Sure I'll keep using 2.5Ah ones as well for lower draw applications. However, it is good to know that they suck. I just don't want to waste my time trying to figure out which high capacity NiMH collapsed because a device may draw a lot of current. Before I kept finding a 2.5Ah Energizer dropping to 0V. Indeed, I found new 2Ah batteries on sale (local Canadian brand) so they are still sold.

Anyway interesting reading and thanks to all for great info :):)
 

LightBright

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Thanks Silverfox for your efforts and posting your test results. It was casually mentioned that recharging or topping off WAY before the cell was out of juice was one way to extend the life of the cell, is that correct?

I revived a Dustbuster myself - I tested the motor's current draw (~3.7VDC at 9, yes NINE AMPS) and installed 6 Lithium Ion cells. It works great!
 

bob_ninja

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LightBright,
9 amps :() :() WOW
I did suspect that it draws a lot. I have 8 AAs replacing 6 Cs. That is about 1 amp per AA. So far my 2Amp NiMH batteries do handle fairly well. Thanks for the info
 

Ergolator

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Silverfox,

This is the best test data and analysis that I have been able to find regarding the effect of "fast" 15 minute chargers on cell life. It inspired me to perform my own testing on the cell temperatures reached on the Energizer CH15MN charger.

I monitored the cell temperature of the four brands of AA NiMH cells listed until the fan on the CH15MN went off. The first peak was reached when the LED on the charger switched from red to green. The testing was terminated when the fan on the CH15MN went off.

Interesting to note is the second temperature peak on most of the cells after the LED had already switched to green.

AANiMH.jpg


Note: The Energizer cells tested at greater than 2500mah capacity even though they are labelled 2200mah. Maybe this is the Energizer 2500mah cell derated for the partial charge in the "fast" charger??

Thanks for the great data.

-Jerry
 

SilverFox

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Hello Jerry,

Very interesting...

It is good to see that the cells are staying below 50 C. I am not sure of the reason for the double hump.

Tom
 

altis

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If I read the description correctly, the first hump coincides with the LED turns from red to green. This is probably the end of the fast charging. Then the charger probably switches to top-off mode and the current drops significantly. As the cells get properly full the temperature rises again until the charger stops completely or switches to trickle mode.
 

SilverFox

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Hello Altis,

I don't believe the Energizer 15 minute charger has a top off mode. It does have a 100 mA trickle charge, but in roughly 8 minutes, that would only account for around 13 mAh. Perhaps they have changed to include a top off stage...

Tom
 

wptski

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Ergolator said:
Silverfox,

This is the best test data and analysis that I have been able to find regarding the effect of "fast" 15 minute chargers on cell life. It inspired me to perform my own testing on the cell temperatures reached on the Energizer CH15MN charger.

I monitored the cell temperature of the four brands of AA NiMH cells listed until the fan on the CH15MN went off. The first peak was reached when the LED on the charger switched from red to green. The testing was terminated when the fan on the CH15MN went off.

Interesting to note is the second temperature peak on most of the cells after the LED had already switched to green.

AANiMH.jpg


Note: The Energizer cells tested at greater than 2500mah capacity even though they are labelled 2200mah. Maybe this is the Energizer 2500mah cell derated for the partial charge in the "fast" charger??

Thanks for the great data.

-Jerry
Jerry:

Somewhere are my posts showing the charge cycle of the E-15. It actually stops charging for a minute or so and rssumes at about half of the max current. The strange thing which I've yet to figure out is that this second stage is skipped at times and it doesn't repeat itself on the same cell again! :confused:
 

Ergolator

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Hi Bill,

Thanks, I was unaware of the half current mode. That would go a long way toward explaining the second temperature peak in the data which is certainly due to a much higher average current than the 100ma trickle charge seen at the end of the test with the cell temps below 30C.

My testing would suggest (at least on some of the cells) that the charger stops charging for about 4 to 5 minutes before resuming at the half current level. Also it is interesting that you cannot repeat the charge profile with the same cell...a variable yet to be isolated.

More clues to ponder.

-Jerry
 
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Ergolator

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Bill,

I found your time domain data for the E-15 charge profile - very cool. I see exactly what you meant by the half current mode. This certainly must correspond to the second temperature peak in my measurements.

-Jerry
 

Ergolator

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Hi Tom,

The average current output of the charger is controlled by adjusting duty cycle of the charger's 7.5 amp maximum output. The following chart combines the cell temperature profile with the cell charging current. There are three distinct phases in the charging process.

Phase 1: High current. The duty cycle in this phase is close to 100%. This phase begins with charge initiation and ends when the LED changes from red to green. This is where the first temperature peak occurs.

Phase 2: Mid Current. The duty cycle in this phase is around 50% and was coined by Bill as the "half current" phase. This phase begins when the LED changes from red to green and ends when the fan turns off. This is where the second temperature peak occurs. This phase is important because it shows that the cells are not fully charged when the LED turns green. A significant portion of the charge occurs after the LED has turned green.

Phase 3: Low Current or trickle charge. The duty cycle in this phase is very low (I calculate 1.3%) to obtain the 100mA trickle current. This phase continues for 24 hours or until the cell is removed or the power is turned off.

phasesnimh.jpg



A cell profile with a more pronounced second peak is hown here:

chicagophases.jpg

-Jerry
 
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SilverFox

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Hello Jerry,

I believe the Duracell 15 minute charger uses the same algorithm. It seems a little less aggressive, and may have a shorter bulk charge, and a longer half charge cycle.

By the way, the Energizer 15 minute charger only continues the 100 mA trickle charge for 24 hours, then it shuts off.

Tom
 

Ergolator

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Hi Tom,

Thanks for the information on the 100ma trickle charge cut off after 24 hours - so corrected in my post.

-Jerry
 
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Anyone else's Sanyo 2.7Ah or Duracell 2.65Ah batteries substantially losing capacity or developing self-discharge rapidly?

Mine were excellent when new. Only after a few tens of charging, capacity seems to go down with every charge with two cells now down to 1.9Ah and they self discharge like crazy now.
 

WildChild

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Handlobraesing said:
Anyone else's Sanyo 2.7Ah or Duracell 2.65Ah batteries substantially losing capacity or developing self-discharge rapidly?

Mine were excellent when new. Only after a few tens of charging, capacity seems to go down with every charge with two cells now down to 1.9Ah and they self discharge like crazy now.

It seems people had problems with high self-discharge with Sanyo 2.7 Ah. I didn't charged my Duracell 2650 mAh for enough cycles to see any problem for now... I hope Duracell will still exchange them if there is again a problem with those! I wish Duracell sold low self-discharge NiMH with lower capacity! I would jump of them...

What is crazy self-discharge rate for you? I had a bad batch of Energizer 2500 mAh self-discharge within 6-7 days.
 
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Ergolator

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WildChild said:
What is crazy self-discharge rate for you? I had a bad batch of Energizer 2500 mAh self-discharge within 6-7 days.

I have some Energizer 2500 mah cells that are almost as bad.

1 day - Down 12% of actual capacity
5 days - Down 21%
12 days - Down 30%
30 days - Down 63%

I have some Chicago electric (Harbor Freight) 2000mah cells that I plan to check to see if there is significant improvement at the lower capacity.

-Jerry
 

bfg9000

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Great work, Tom! Is your CBA's 2.5A discharge through a resistor or a pulsed regulator to arrive at an averaged constant-current? I ask because there is one other thing that may theoretically affect cycle life greatly--the load profile:
batteryuniversity said:
...nickel-metal-hydride exhibits a reduced cycle life when powering a digital load.

In a recent study, the longevity of nickel-meal-hydride(sic) was observed by discharging with analog and digital loads to 1.04V/cell. The analog discharge current was 500mA; the digital mode... ...applied 1.65-ampere peak current for 12 ms every 100 ms and a standby current of 270mA..

With the analog discharge, the nickel-metal-hydride provided an above average service life. At 700 cycles, the battery still provided 80% capacity. By contrast, the cells faded more rapidly with a digital discharge. The 80% capacity threshold was reached after only 300 cycles. This phenomenon indicates that the kinetic characteristics for the nickel-metal-hydride deteriorate more rapidly with a digital rather than an analog load.
This leads to an interesting question: do PWM regulated lights decrease NiMH cycle life? And I wonder if battery charger/analyzers like the Cadex, BC-900 or MH-C9000 use resistor banks or digitally pulse a load into a fixed resistor. I'd guess the latter to conserve space and economize on 5w resistors...

I have now had 16 bad Energizer 2500s that self-discharged to <1.0v in <4 weeks. They may well have been too easily damaged by impact (I am treating the replacements much more gently) or from overcharging (I found the charger I used terminated at 1.55v, yuk), which would make the usual separator wear-out issue a moot point. But at least we now know that fast-charging in itself isn't particularly bad, though it would sure be nice to know if we could expect better than 150 cycles with our unregulated, direct-drive lights. Maybe even the expected 300-500...
 

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