Defective? Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition? Starting to look like battery problem instead.

[Grumpy]

Edit 6/16/09 I now believe that all 3 of the batteries that I have are defective and the cause of the short runtimes with the light. 2 of the 3 were purchased recently however and I am wondering what has caused them to have so much diminished capacity? I still plan on doing a measurement of the current draw to make sure that the light is working properly and I also plan on buying some primary batteries to test the light with per others recommendation. The reason that I believe that it is the batteries is that I have now ran all three of them in my DragonHeart with a spacer and got similar runtimes as I did with the EX10.

My apoligies to Nitecore for not wording my original title of the thread with question marks as it now seems that I made a mistake by believing that all 3 of my batteries could not have been bad especially since 2 of them are fairly new. I will look up and see when I purchased them when I have more time.




I recently purchased a Nitecore EX10 R2 edition.

I took it fishing last night and it cut off much sooner that it should.

I went home and did some runtime test on it with 3 different AW R123 batteries all charged to 4.2 volt. (2 of these batteries are recent purchases)

I got anywhere from 18 to 28 minutes runtime on the highest setting and the light got very hot even though I held it in my hands the whole time. I had to switch hands back and forth because it would get uncomfortably hot.

I have read where others have received defective lights and was under the impression that they had corrected this issue.

Nitecore advertises these lights as having a runtime of 80 minutes on R123 protected batteries.

Selfbuilt's review (link below) shows the runtime around 53 minutes on this battery.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=202436

Is Nitecore lying about their runtime or am I missing something?

In the following review by UnknownVT he also received a defective light


"
During my beamshots of this review the first sample of the EX10 would switch Off unexpectedly - obviously a fault -
I think it could be from over-heating as the light was being used on Max - and the light did get noticably warm-hot - hot enough to be noticable - but not too hot to hold.
Leaving the light off for a few minutes (to cool down?) - the EX10 worked again at the same level of brightness. "

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...ngVEFPx6L6Y94oWHg&sig2=j9n8ZdgqupMUXbc1FprgGg

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

It was almost deninitely the battery protection kicking in, not the light itself.

I'm pretty sure the EX10 has no temperature sensor.

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

It was almost deninitely the battery protection kicking in, not the light itself.

I'm pretty sure the EX10 has no temperature sensor.

I was under the impression that if the battery protection kicked in that it would have to be placed back on the charger to be reset.

Also turned the light off for a few minutes and back on and it would only run for another 2 minutes. That is definately way short of the advertised runtime and even short of the runtime in selfbuilt's review.

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Have you tried a primary? Easy method of confirming the source of the issue.

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Have you tried a primary? Easy method of confirming the source of the issue.

I don't own primaries and generally don't buy lights that only take primaries. I use my lights a lot.

I used 3 different batteries. I am pretty sure that all three of them are not defective. (I guess that the battery protection could be cutting the light off to protect from over discharge and damage to the batteries.)

That being said the light is still defective as it should have much longer run time before the batteries protection kicks in.

I tested the battery voltage almost immediately after the light shut off and it showed 3.57 volts. If the protection kicked in then maybe the voltage rebounded?

I also placed one of the batteries after it shut of in the EX10 into my DragonHeart and it shut off within a few seconds. (Again maybe this could be the battery protection kicking in due to the EX10 discharging the battery to a low level much faster than it should?)

I previously owned a EX10 Q5 edition and it would run around 50 minutes or so and I could live with that even if it was much less than their advertised runtime. (I wonder how they get the runtime to be that long because in the review by selfbuilt and others the runtime is approx. 30 minutes shorter than the 80 minutes they state)

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

As you demonstrated, you cells are 100% certainly the source. You confirmed that. Blame the cells or charger, not the light.

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

As you demonstrated, you cells are 100% certainly the source. You confirmed that. Blame the cells or charger, not the light.

How to you possibly come to that conclusion?

Please tell me what I am missing?

We may be having a communication problem.

The batteries are designed to cut off to protect themselves from overdischarge.

If the light is drawing way to much current than this is what is supposed to happen.

How can you fault the batteries for doing what they are designed to do?

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Also the charger charges to 4.2 volt.

This is where it is supposed to be AFAIK

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

You eliminated the light as the problem of shutting off to early when the cells fail to also function in another light. The voltage backs that up. The cells are either in poor condition, or your charger is not charging them properly.

If you really think it is the light, what is the current draw at several times during discharge?

 

[Crenshaw]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

running the ex10 for any amount of duration will produce significant heat. The runtimes dont mean the amount of time you can hold it comfortably in your hand, it just means how long it will run.

It is also possible that Nitecore did thier runtimes with differnt capacity 16340s? If they used un protected 16340s, the physical capacity will be higher because there is no need for space for a circuit, and it will also run longer, Maybe down to 2.75v, and AW's circuit cuts it off before that.

Leaving it to cool down probably let the battery recover, and thus let you use it awhile longer.

Crenshaw

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

running the ex10 for any amount of duration will produce significant heat. The runtimes dont mean the amount of time you can hold it comfortably in your hand, it just means how long it will run.

It is also possible that Nitecore did thier runtimes with differnt capacity 16340s? If they used un protected 16340s, the physical capacity will be higher because there is no need for space for a circuit, and it will also run longer, Maybe down to 2.75v, and AW's circuit cuts it off before that.

Leaving it to cool down probably let the battery recover, and thus let you use it awhile longer.

Crenshaw

If they advertise a light to run for 80 minutes then it should run close to 80 minutes not 53 as per others run time tests.

My light only runs for 20 minutes or so. That is 1/4th of the advertised runtime and is why I believe it is faulty.

By the way they plainly state that the 80 minute runtime is with protected batteries.

I did not say and did not imply what you said above "The runtimes dont mean the amount of time you can hold it comfortably in your hand, it just means how long it will run."

If they replace the light and I get one that runs 50 some minutes than I will be OK with that but also wondered what they did to get the advertised 80 minute runtime. I don't know of a R123 battery that is capable of that.

I don't have another R123 light but have a Quark 123 that has already been shipped and should get it soon.

In the meantime, I have made a spacer and placed one of the R123 cells in my DragonHeart flashlight on the 750ma table which is close to the 700ma max of the EX10.

If it runs for significantly longer in the DragonHeart at a higher ma rate then I will know that my batteries are good. (Fingers crossed)

I read that AW batteries actually can run down to around 2.5 something volts before the protection kicks in and then rebound above 3.0 shortly thereafter. See this post by AW http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2939294&postcount=3

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

I also wonder if a light is drawing much more current then it is supposed to if it will shorten the lifespan/capacity of the cells and possibly make the cells die and early death and make them look faulty. A person could then buy new batteries not knowing that it was the lights fault all along.

I don't mean to imply anything by the comment above. I am not positive if it is the light or the batteries that are causing the problem.

I just wonder that if the light is defective, could it kill my batteries by drawing too much current?

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

1) AW123's are not the highest capacity protected cells available
2) Under voltage is only ONE trigger of the protection circuit

It takes 5 seconds to measure the current and know for sure if what you presume is true, which I HIGHLY doubt is.

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

You eliminated the light as the problem of shutting off to early when the cells fail to also function in another light. The voltage backs that up. The cells are either in poor condition, or your charger is not charging them properly.

If you really think it is the light, what is the current draw at several times during discharge?

The cells did not fail to function in another light. As I said above the cell was discharged in the EX10 and not re-charged before being installed in the DragonHeart.

I can see how that I might not have worded that the best however.


I just simply wanted to place the cell in the other light and see if it would run for a while longer without cutting off as the EX10 may have done?

Thanks for helping me troubleshoot this issue.

I have a cell in the DragonHeart with a spacer to see if it will run any longer. (fingers crossed)

By the way the EX10 is my EDC and I like it very much except for this issue which I hope to figure out and or get fixed.

Thanks

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

1) AW123's are not the highest capacity protected cells available
2) Under voltage is only ONE trigger of the protection circuit

It takes 5 seconds to measure the current and know for sure if what you presume is true, which I HIGHLY doubt is.

Tell me how to check it and I will.

Do I have to disassemble the light make test leads etc. ?

I don't believe that it can be done in 5 seconds but am willing to try.

 

[Marduke]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

I tested the battery voltage almost immediately after the light shut off and it showed 3.57 volts. If the protection kicked in then maybe the voltage rebounded?

I also placed one of the batteries after it shut of in the EX10 into my DragonHeart and it shut off within a few seconds. (Again maybe this could be the battery protection kicking in due to the EX10 discharging the battery to a low level much faster than it should?)

As I stated several times, that right there shows it's the cell pooping out, not the light.

3.57v after rebound is fairly dead.

And it does take only a few seconds to measure the current. Take the head off, measure the current between the ring and battery to measure cell current draw.

 

[loanshark]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Do you know how to measure the current?

 

[Grumpy]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Do you know how to measure the current?

Got to go to work now.

I will try and check the current draw when I get up tomorrow evening.

I think I can figure out how to set the DMM

Do I set the DMM on A DC ? I guess that means AMPS Direct Current

 

[loanshark]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Got to go to work now.

I will try and check the current draw when I get up tomorrow evening.

I think I can figure out how to set the DMM

Do I set the DMM on A DC ? I guess that means AMPS Direct Current

Right! Make sure you set the range high enough. Some DMMs make you put the probe in a different socket for higher amps...

 

[KiwiMark]

Re: Defective Nitecore EX10 R2 Edition

Also the charger charges to 4.2 volt.

This is where it is supposed to be AFAIK

Li-ion cells are funny things when it comes to charging. My understanding is that the correct charging method is to feed a constant current until the cell reaches 4.2V and at this point the cell is around 80% charged, then feed in a diminishing current while holding the cell at 4.2V (the more charge in the cell the less current it takes to make the voltage be 4.2V). This is what I understand the CC/CV chargers do (constant current/constant voltage) with a 2 stage charging process.

It is certainly possible for a charger to charge a cell to 4.2V and still only have gotten it to 3/4 charge level. One easy experiment would be to pick up a CR123a cell at the supermarket and put it in the light - see how long it runs for before dying.