Do Li-Ions only live 2 years?

[nerdgineer]

In reading up on li-ion batteries, I've found commentary (such as this ) which says li-ions only live about 2 years from date of manufacture, whether they are used or not.

Has anyone experienced this. Loose li-ions can simply be replaced, but I think some lights (and cell phones) have them permanently embedded which would seem to create a problem.

 

[Klaus]

My research shows 2-3 years and/or 500 cycles - whatever comes first - my experience with Li-Ion cells in various devices would support this as well.

Klaus

 

[nerdgineer]

Thanks Klaus.

 

[LEDagent]

There goes my iPod. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[cy]

my cell phone's li-ion cell is 4+ years old and still kicking. I did notice a drop in capacity to %80 aprox. 2 years ago.

it's got way more than 500 cycles on it. I'm real good about putting it on the charger when the batt indicator goes down. Other than that I've done nothing special.

 

[Mednanu]

[ QUOTE ]
nerdgineer said:....li-ions only live about 2 years from date of manufacture, whether they are used or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I concur with Klaus. 2-3 years or 500-700 charges, then they fail. It's the price for having such high energy densities and no memory effect in such small packages.....but it does blow in my opinion too. NiMh's always seemed to last a lot longer if they were well taken care of...they just can't deliver the punch that Lithiums can.


[ QUOTE ]
LEDagent said:
There goes my iPod. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
No worries LEDagent, you can pick up a DIY kit to replace your iPod's battery for $29 at http://www.ipodresq.com/ ..... or have them do it for your about $79. The kit includes the tool you'll need to safely take apart your Pod. If you are at all mechanically inclined, try the DIY option - it's not that hard.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[James S]

Which is another reason that buying LiIon cells from surplus places isn't really a good idea in the long term, these packs that they get are often a year or more old and the cells will have a less than full life.

While there is a limit to the time and cycle number, their life also is significantly impacted by the kind of charger. Every liion charger is supposed to be smart. The charging process is actually 2 staged, you do it voltage based up to a certain voltage and then stick the voltage there and watch the current flow, once it drops to a certain point the cell is changed. Chargers that charge more aggressively or top off beyond the top or dont shut off all the way are going to destroy the batts a lot faster.

I think that it's also better to store them not quite fully charged. Which is a reason that phone batteries tend to last a lot longer than say laptop batteries. You charge them and then take them out of the charger and they start to run down and so probably spend the bulk of their time with a little power flowing out.

As far as the iPod is concerned, this is like urban legend now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I've replaced one for a friend, and in another 6 months or so I may decide mine needs replacing. I would hazard a guess that anybody reading here would have no problem replacing the battery. After all, you only need to do it every 18-24 months /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[paulr]

They can last longer than 2-3 years but the capacity decreases. They can also crap out in much less than one year. I've never heard of a cell phone with a permanently embedded battery. iPods and some PDA's have permanently embedded batteries and IMO that's asking for trouble. Even those batteries are usually not soldered in, and you can replace the battery by disassembling the unit. But it's a pain. I would avoid buying devices with that misfeature.

 

[2dim]

I hardly use my cellphone, but still plug it in every night. Is this a bad idea? Any other tips? Thanks.

 

[Kiessling]

oh my ... this confirms my refusal of such things even more ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

bernhard

 

[James S]

[ QUOTE ]
iPods and some PDA's have permanently embedded batteries and IMO that's asking for trouble. Even those batteries are usually not soldered in, and you can replace the battery by disassembling the unit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen any device with them soldered in. The iPod has them on a little plug inside. It just doesn't have a separate battery door so you have to take the back off the unit.

The Palm Titanium series is the same way, they have the battery embedded, and require that you disassemble the case to get to it.

If you're using a battery that needs to be replaced every couple of hours, then you need a battery door. If you're going to change the battery every 18 months to 2 years then having to spend an extra 10 or 15 minutes getting it replaced is hardly a hardship. And if you do drop the thing or otherwise subject it to stress there is no battery door to break off and send your batteries flying. The case overall is greatly strengthened by not having to have a door in the back of it. sorry, but I just can't get outraged about having to spend that extra time replacing the battery in my iPod after 2 years of not having to worry about it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[2dim]

[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
oh my ... this confirms my refusal of such things even more ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

bernhard

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya! Good when needed, but reception not that dependable, even in this big city. Got sucked into a two-year agreement, too, with their misleading free camera offer. Turned out to be cheap cr*p, not the one meant for my phone. Makes a good portable alarm clock anyway...

 

[Unicorn]

Unfortunately for the IPOD owners, the battery isn't (or isn't supposed to be) user replaceable. If it fails during the warrenty period, Apple will replace it at no cost. After that they charge a $100 to replace it. And this was only within the last year or year and a half that they started doing that. There are aftermarket battereis you can get for about $50 though.

 

[Doug S]

I've gotten up to 5 years. These had at least 200 cycles but certainly less than 500 cycles.

 

[PeLu]

Temperature plays a big role and cells are different.

AFAIK the kind of electrodes make a big difference and the depth of discharge. Discharging only partly gives a higher overall capacity (this is the capacity the cell is able to deliver over it's whole lifetime, maybe there is a better term).
Graphite electrodes (the kind of cells which have a 4.1V terminal charging voltage) should be last more than twice as long, but have a lower capacity.
And good cahrgers shut off after some time when the current has not already went down to the treshold.

I've also recovered cells from laptop computer power packs which are 2-3 years old and quite good (75%-80 capacity). But it is only about one cell of 8-10.
That means, production tolerance could be your freind or your enemy.
My 2cents (Eurocents of course)

 

[brightnorm]

I just saw this thread after converting many of my lights to PILAs. I guess only time will tell how well they stack up though I'll admit to being a little disappointed; seems like there is always a price to pay if things seem too good, or even very good.

Brightnorm

 

[illumiGeek]

Depends on the specific battery formula, charging, useage, luck, and a few other factors. But the simple answer is about 2-3 years is typical. PDA Li-Ion Poly batteries often last longer (3-5 years). Computer Li-Ions often less (1-2 years).

Generally NiMh and NiCad will remain useful far longer than Li-Ion. I have some of each that are more than 5 years old now and are still working great. Of course, they don't always last that long. I have thrown out a few spent NiCad and NiMh batteries in that same time frame (not many, though).

Aloha, iG

 

[Rudi]

Are LiIons labeled with date of manufacture or expiration, or offer any clue as to their age?

Does storing them in the refrigerator or freezer signifficantly lengthen their life expectancy?

 

[Lux Luthor]

Rudi,

From the Battery University site:

...Aging is a concern with most lithium-ion batteries and many manufacturers remain silent about this issue. Some capacity deterioration is noticeable after one year, whether the battery is in use or not. The battery frequently fails after two or three years. It should be noted that other chemistries also have age-related degenerative effects. This is especially true for nickel-metal-hydride if exposed to high ambient temperatures...

...Storage in a cool place slows the aging process of lithium-ion (and other chemistries). Manufacturers recommend storage temperatures of 15°C (59°F). In addition, the battery should be partially charged during storage. The manufacturer recommends a 40% charge...

 

[TrueBlue]

I KNEW IT! Back in the refrigerator goes my Li-ION batteries. Just like I used to do decades ago with my old carbon-zinc batteries. I wonder if my old carbon-zinc batteries are still in the frig after all these years? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif