Double standard on shipping?

[was.lost.but.now.found]

So we've all probably seen a lot of the recent deals gone bad regarding shipping between a buyer and a seller. With each transaction I feel horrible for all the involved parties. No one wants packages to be lost or stolen in the mail; I get a sinking feeling every time I see a new Jeer when there is a problem with shipping and a purchased item goes lost with no recourse. It's a he said / she said every time with no winners.

I get the feeling that it is generally understood by most members that the buyer is responsible for the merchandise once the seller has shipped it (i.e. the seller cannot be responsible for items lost or stolen in transit). So long as the seller provides reasonable proof that the light was in fact sent, it becomes the buyer's responsiblity from that point. Fair enough. Further, the buyer can usually request (at or before time of sale of course) to purchase additional safegaurds to protect themselves, such as guaranteed delivery, insurance, etc.

But here's the two fold rub which I just can't get over. First, by the buyer bearing responsibility for purchasing insurance, isn't the buyer really just protecting the seller from loss, as the seller is the one who files the claim and receives reimbursement? It seems to me since the post office has a policy of paying claims to the shipper, they hold the belief that the shipper is the holder of the property until it reach its destination. Rub part two, let's say the buyer paid extra for insurance, receives the light and it's DOA. Buyer sends the light back. Who is responsible for insurance now? I'm guessing most sellers would say that the buyer is responsible for getting the light safely back to them to provide for a repair/replacement (that's what happened to me with a major dealer with a major CPF presence). The seller rarely provides a prepaid shipping label to return the defective merchandise.

To me this is just incredulous - the buyer is being asked to assume full responsibility for the light anytime it is being shipped. Doesn't it sound like a double standard?

IMHO, in an ideal world the sender would always maintain responsiblity of the item until it has been received by the other party. So let's say I'm a dealer. If I want to save on postage, send the cheapest way possible every time, and cough up for a lost/stolen package once in a while, that's my right. On the other hand, if a seller bore the responsiblity of insuring every package they sent, there would never be any issues with loss and theft and everyone would be happy. Do I have reasonable beliefs, or am I just out there? (yeah I know I'm asking for it with that one:nana

If your still reading right now, I'd really like to treat this thread as a coming together for buyers and sellers since lately there seems to be a big rift between the two parties. Seems folks like to dig in their heels and fight for the group they feel more allegiance to. I hope we can all come together and discuss some best practices of sorts. Apologies in advance if this is the wrong place. lovecpf

 

[sigsour]

I am definitely the odd man out here. Whenever I sell an item; I feel it is my responsibility to get that item to the stranger that just paid me money for that item. So depending on the size or price of an item, I will pay for the insurance to get that package to them. If anything gets lost then I can reimburse the buyer without any problems.

 

[carrot]

To me, it is up to the seller's terms of service. We expect better, more consumer-oriented service of dealers who move large amounts of products (4sevens, BatteryJunction, etc), but it is not necessarily fair to apply the same standards towards custom makers who sell very small, limited runs, or even people who sell one or two items a month, or even a year, who have little to no, or even negative profit margins. Such individuals can often be losing money on transactions (as is the case with many custom builders who quote one price, and eat the additional costs that are associated with building a new product to honor their original quote) and for them to also be responsible for the replacement of lost items in the mail under all circumstances is especially onerous.

I think that, when a buyer buys from a seller, they are agreeing to the seller's terms of service, and if they do not agree, they should not buy.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

I think that, when a buyer buys from a seller, they are agreeing to the seller's terms of service, and if they do not agree, they should not buy.

Very true, I knew that point would probably come up. Additionally, it's like anything else, like the argument over stated lumens vs. OTF. A mfg who quotes OTF lumens is putting themselves at a disadvantage to one which quotes emitter lumens (or worse, hypothetical lumens). Similarly, a dealer/seller who always pays extra for insurance (and just adds it into the price) could put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by having an additional expense that offers little to no ROI.

Here is where the dealer could gain - you market the hell out of it. "Member fatboyslim ALWAYS includes insurance because he cares about you and wants an issue free transaction". I will buy a light from that guy!!

 

[Nautic]

Good point w.l.b.n.f.

I always buy from abroad and pays the postage asked. But I have always wondered why I´m both responsible for getting the item here, and the same for returning a faulty item back to the seller.

With the policy stated by Sigsour, he is my kind af seller!

 

[mattheww50]

I believe as a matter of law, that if the buyer paid the seller for the shipping, that is in fact a service being provided by the seller, consequently the seller is responsible for anything that happens.

Years ago when I held several multi-million dollar OEM contracts, the contract language made clear that I owned the equipment as soon as it hit THEIR dock for shipment, but that they were responsible for any damage/loss that occurred in transit.

Like many things, what the seller claims as the limits of his liability, and what the law says don't always agree. It is just like the release you sign that says you will hold the operator of the amusement ride harmless from any damages that may result. The reality is that as a matter of law, the release is not worth the paper it is written on.

Ebay prohibited sellers from charging extra for insurance last year, because under California law, the risk is, and always was, with the shipper. IF the seller wanted to bundle the cost of insurance into his shipping & handling charge that was fine, but ebay banned seperate and additional charges for insurance.

If you file a claim with the credit card company over a purchase, unless the seller can prove acceptance and delivery, the seller will lose.

If you charge for a service, you are in fact entering into a contract for specific performance (which is the delivery of that service). Consequently the transaction will fall under contract law (and probably the uniform commercial code in almost every state).

So my advice to sellers, is make sure you charge enough for shipping and handling, to buy insurance unless you are willing to carry the loss.

 

[nfetterly]

Insurance within USA is pretty reasonable & I typically ask for it if I'm looking at a $100 plus light (wait, those are the only lights I seem to look at!).

Anyway, shipping to/from Europe etc the insurance starts to become VERY expensive. CPF member Henk Lu (Thierry from Belgium) had a good route to go (his wife works for their post office) and that was to ship registered mail - so while not insured it is tracked very well. Unfortunately I also found out USPS has you use a specific tape!! - but if you don't use the right type (brown paper tape I believe) they have it there for you to use. I think that is because they stamp it across where the tape connects to the box.

 

[jtr1962]

I believe as a matter of law, that if the buyer paid the seller for the shipping, that is in fact a service being provided by the seller, consequently the seller is responsible for anything that happens.

Pretty much everything I've read on the subject says the opposite. Even the carriers state they are not responsible for unisured items lost or damaged in transit. That's the very reason they charge extra for insurance. If they're not responsible, then the person who shipped them certainly isn't. Once they ship, it's completely out of their control. You can only be held responsible for things directly under your control.

I do think it's a good idea to always purchase delivery confirmation so the buyer can't claim they never received a package.

I also agree with others here that small modders or people who do group buys shouldn't be held to the same standard as large companies. If a large company wants to replace items lost in shipping as a matter of policy that's fine. But don't expect the same of individuals selling their wares here. If I run a group buy, for example, I'm lucky to make enough to cover my costs. If I have to start replacing items lost in the mail then I'm losing money. Sure, it stinks for the buyer, but fact is lost packages are a very infrequent occurence. I've never had it happen to me with anything I've bought.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

I buy a lot of stuff off the internet both new and used, from retailers and private sellers, off ebay and off other sites. I woudl receive something in the order of two hundred parcels/packages per year, perhaps fifty of them from overseas, US and UK but occasionally Hong Kong and Japan and France.

From the other end, I send out maybe a hundred packages of things I sell on ebay and another auction site each year.

The value of the items has run the gamut from ten dollars to about two and a half thousand dollars and are mostly Jaguar parts, tools, watches, pocket watches, fountain pens, some electronic stuff and some torches of late.

I mostly send first class mail and mostly receive the same. High valueitems are eiethr regsitered or insured, say over five hundred dollars.

I've been doing this since about 2003 when I first got access to the internet and you know what? I've not lost one single package in the mail, not one. I've had a few damaged but never one lost.

When buying, I do have concerns about a shipper's mail policies. Companies like 4sevens who include the price of inetrnational shipping in their prices get my business regularly (I've had twenty "untracked" packages from them in the last couple of months and none has gone astray). Companies like ***** who demand twenty seven to forty dollars for tracked international shipping of items that might only be worth fifty to a hundred dollars do not ever get my business, nor do companies that lie on customs declaration forms.

Personally, I wonder how much mail theft actually goes on at post offices round the world and how much really happens at the receiver's door.

 

[Barbarian]

I ship via UPS. There are a handful of reasons, but the main one is their superior tracking. I have never had a lost package via Big Brown either shipping or receiving.

For me, there are only 3 cons in using UPS
1. More expensive than USPS Since I don't use the post office for shipping, I'm not sure how much more UPS is than the USPS, but I doubt it is that much.

2. Slower delivery than priority mail This is especially true shipping to the Pacific time zone. For some reason it takes 4 business days to deliver a package from the middle of the country where I live to Pacific time zone states.

3. UPS is very expensive shipping overseas. That means CONUS only for me.


I consider the first 2 cons I mentioned minor. I don't ship that many items, so the extra cost is minimal. The fact that some packages may take an extra day or two to arrive to the buyer is tempered because of the much better tracking info provided by UPS.

I understand if you ship many packages that the extra cost would be too punitive for the seller. I don't think buyers mind waitng up to 4 business days after the package is shipped for it to arrive. If you buy something from me on a Sunday, the very latest you will recieve the package is on Friday. The biggest con to me then is that I have to limit my sales to CONUS buyers only. That is a concern because of the many potential buyers that are shutout.

The seller usually sets the rules via their individual sales thread. It seems more and more of them have this (or a similar) statement "I'm not responsible for lost item(s)." I'm always leery of those type of statements, but I also understand that the seller is trying to protect himself/herself. I don't think there is an easy solution. Unfortunately, a few bad apples can turn usually active B/S/T members sour for good.

In closing, I feel that I am responsible as the seller for my package to get to the buyer. I communicate often with the buyer from the time they say "I take it" up until the package is delivered. It seems to me that most of the recent jeers could have been avoided by better communication from the sellers and in a few cases, the buyer. Not answering PM's or e-mails from a buyer is inexcusable, so communicate with the buyer and use the agreed upon shipping method.

 

[mattheww50]

Pretty much everything I've read on the subject says the opposite. Even the carriers state they are not responsible for unisured items lost or damaged in transit. That's the very reason they charge extra for insurance. If they're not responsible, then the person who shipped them certainly isn't. Once they ship, it's completely out of their control. You can only be held responsible for things directly under your control.

....

And that is where the rub comes from. The choice of shipping service is in fact under the direct control of the shipper. In accepting payment for service, the shipper has entered into a contract for service. The shipping companies get around this partially by having a formal contract that you as the shipper entered into (and signed) as a condition of service that spells out their liabilities (and limitations) in great detail.

Even then most shipping companies are 'on the hook' for $100, which they state is the assumed value UNLESS you declare otherwise.

Just saying you aren't liable isn't enough until or unless you can get the other party to accept that liability in writing.

 

[GLOCK18]

As a seller on CPF and on eBay with over 10k transaction, I have yet to lose one single package. First I never shipped to an address not verified by paypal, I never shipped without insurance weather it's a 10 dollar item or a 10k Rolex, insurance is not an option but a requirement. No insurance no sell. It almost seems that packages with insurance don't go missing kind of strange.

 

[chaoss]

I always ship U.P.S. Yes it is more expensive but i have yet to have a problem with them and i will always ship in a large (still under 1#) box to help curb any possible problems associated with the smaller boxes.

I use them for many reasons, including automatic insurance (up to $100), great tracking, signature/delivery confirmation and email updates.

Like Barbarian said, i feel it is my duty to look out for the buyer (as well as myself).

 

[Illum]

I suppose not only do sellers of modded lights have to make buyers sign waviers declaring seller free of responsibility should the light explode after transferring hands...sellers now have to explicitly state whether the initiation of responsibility [not cost!] is FOB shipping point or FOB destination:shrug:

FOB specifies which party (buyer or seller) pays for which shipment and loading costs, and/or where responsibility for the goods is transferred. The last distinction is important for determining liability for goods lost or damaged in transit from the seller to the buyer.

gee, why can't selling lights be easy like the old days where people throw pies, not punches in disputes and packages lost in the mail is considered in grievance by both parties and not one trying to shoot the other thinking its an act of criminal intent?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

As an occasional seller I do what I can to see that a package will make it to the buyer, but I can not guarantee it will occur What I do is use first class for small inexpensive items with Delivery Confirmation. For more expensive items I will use Priority/confirmation. For higher value items I will use Priority/confirmation/insurance. In this day and age I do not see where I can add insurance, priority, and delivery confirmation to the price of the items I sell. After reading this thread I may end up including insurance for all items.

Bill

 

[william lafferty]

The shipping transactions that are of concern here fall into two categories: those in which there is a contractual understanding as to risk of loss (i.e., the seller states who bears the risk) and those in which there is not. When a seller posts that he is not responsible after the package leaves his hands, the buyer buys pursuant to that contract.

Where nothing about risk of loss is mentioned, the law, probably the uniform commercial code, supplies the answer to who bears the risk of loss, and perhaps those who use the UCC more than I can recite what the UCC says.

Of course, if a buyer does not like the seller's terms of sale, he can always negotiate other terms, such as "I will buy the light if you will bear the risk of loss." If seller refuses to accept that modification of the contract, then there is no sale or the buyer caves in.

For those who try to figure out which solution is "fair," good luck. I think you will find that there are good arguments for both sides in every shipping scenario you can come up with. That is why the best solution is to treat the problem as one of contract--that way you always bargain for what you get.

 

[orbspeed1]

JaguarDave-in-Oz I think you are spot on.
"Personally, I wonder how much mail theft actually goes on at post offices round the world and how much really happens at the receiver's door."

Most company's organisations are set up in such a way to minimize loss ie internal cctv, staff searches, vetting staff and general policy's that reduce theft opportunity.

So which is more likley the post office or the Buyer!!!!

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

What I gather here is that most folks are saying that delivery confirmation should in most reasonable cases come standard from a seller. I quick check of USPS shows that's $.70. For a dollar more (1.75) you can get insurance instead. It may just be me, but I'd much rather have the insurance (up to $200 value) than delivery confirmation. What do others think?

 

[jtr1962]

What I gather here is that most folks are saying that delivery confirmation should in most reasonable cases come standard from a seller. I quick check of USPS shows that's $.70. For a dollar more (1.75) you can get insurance instead. It may just be me, but I'd much rather have the insurance (up to $200 value) than delivery confirmation. What do others think?

That's good in theory but from what I heard USPS rarely pays out claims. When they do, it often takes months. I tend to think just having delivery confirmation means USPS takes a bit of extra care to ensure that the package reaches its final destination. Perhaps having an insurance sticker on the box does the same. Either way, there's little reason not to get at least delivery confirmation unless you're shipping very low value items like a few 5mm LEDs.

Another interesting thing I've heard regarding goods damaged in shipment is that they almost always have "fragile" or "breakable" written somewhere on the box. A relative of mine who used to work for UPS says it was pretty much a given that boxes marked fragile would be used for touch football during breaks. I don't know if that's still the case, but to this day I'm very hesitant about labeling a box "fragile". Just pack it well, get delivery confirmation and/or insurance, send it on its way, hope for the best. Probably in 9999 out of 10000 times it'll arrive in good condition.

 

[Flashlight Aficionado]

I communicate often with the buyer from the time they say "I take it" up until the package is delivered. It seems to me that most of the recent jeers could have been avoided by better communication from the sellers and in a few cases, the buyer. Not answering PM's or e-mails from a buyer is inexcusable, so communicate with the buyer and use the agreed upon shipping method.

Communication is the key. Good transactions become great and bad transactions become tolerable.