E1B & E2DL- really tactical or just marketing?

[greenLED]

Search, I think we must keep in mind the difference between SWAT teams and civilians when the time to use force in self defense (as a legal definition) comes.

I don't think you can compare SWAT needs with civilian needs, even if both may want/need a "tactical" (in the true sense of the word, given a defensive context, not just marketing) light.

For example, I would never try to clear a structure by myself. That's something that requires a bunch of guys with superior firepower and tons of training to do it properly. Definitely not for the average Joe (however much the armchair commandos would like to think about it).

Just a thought...

 

[Search]

Just an example :)

 

[Youfoundnemo]

Really a clicky is anything but tactical, by keeping the light on you give away your location. for a weapon mounted light the only thing that can qualify for "tactical" would be a pressure switch that way you dont have to compromise your grip on your pistol/carbine for a stand alone light once again momentary is the only thing I would consider for the job of clearing a room. Now this is all comming from tactical teen (aka mall ninja) while I try my best to learn the tactics and methods of the "elite" I know Ill never use em....

 

[ja10]

It would be impossible to wrap "tactical" up into one strict definition. Most anything tactical for a police officer is probably not "tactical" for a sniper. I don't know for sure, but I would guess that not too many Delta Force guys need a low mode for writing a suicide bomber a ticket.

I think the E2DL and Backup are aimed at the security guard/police officer/civilian "tactical" market. In that world, I believe that they are "tactical" - they have a bright high mode that comes on first, and then is either concealable or has some teeth for breaking windows.

Chances are that if the light is available on the open market, it isn't "tactical" in the strictest sense. Too many compromises are made with products that are available to the masses. One group might want a pressure switch, one may want a clickie, and another might just want IR. Anyone who needs that level of tactical will know exactly what they need, and won't be persuaded by the packaging ... :)

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

So I got to thinking what makes up a good tactical light, and quite frankly I'm not convinced that these Surefires in particular are really a wise choice for use in conjunction with a firearm or for self defense. First off, the switch.

I find it interesting that the traditional tactical light (like a 6P) is pure momentary only with twist to constant on. This gives the user, in a high stress situation, the ability to get full power quickly and easily as well as being able to revert to no light just by lifting a finger. Seeing that I haven't been in a gunfight yet (and I hope I never do), everything I have read points that fine motor skills go out the window, so having a multi-click interface in something like the Surefires could get you in a boatload of trouble. You start jamming down the button, it goes from full to off to low mode, and by that point the BG is somewhere else or on top of you. In this regard, I would put the L1 down as being more tactically oriented, as the switch is simple: mash down for high. Let off to turn off.

I'm torn on the beam, and hopefully some of the more knoweledgeable members can help me out here. I'm assuming, according to the ads and marketing I've seen for these lights, that they most likely going to be used in an urban environment, which would imply that there's some ambient light around. So if you want to spotlight someone, a light with throw would be best, such as the aforementioned Surefires. So in that situation they would work pretty well, but what about room clearing in your house, or out in the woods? These lights seem to lack a stronger spill, which seems necessary to me. I remember a thread on here a bit ago that showcased someone's backyard filled with mockup badguys, and the throw oriented lights did a bad job at IDing targets.

So what's the deal? In your own varied experiences, do these lights live up to the mission they're designed for? Are they just asking to get the user in trouble? Let me know what you think!

Note: This is not a Surefire bash, over 80% of my lights are Surefires. I love them and will keep on using them. I'm just concerned that people might think that these lights are the best choice in a tactical light, and it might end up biting them back when they need it most.

It's called E1 Backup (Not primary) and E2 Defender (Not attacker). SureFire made no mistakes here. They are exactly that: a back-up pocket light for officers on duty or security guards, while the Defender is a "last resort" self-defense tool which may be used-- but not ideally --as a tactical light in conbination with a fire weapon.

Stick with you primary light for tactical activities and your weapon light or primary 'combat light' when using a gun in low-light scenarios.

I guess they know what works and what doesn't better than us, afteral they run the well-respected SureFire Institute for Military and Law Enforcement training... They ain't joking about it, that's what they do for a living, for Christ's sake!

 

[Search]

When I hear tactical I think of something someone in a tactical situation would be doing. Not looking for an intruder in your house.

Regardless, using the E2DL as an example. You can still use monetary on. Simple, very simple. Trained tactical people don't go into situations not knowing what to do. It excites them. It's not like they were forced in there.

If your not that person, why would you need a tactical flashlight?

The general flashaholic's definition is what.. durable, simple, easy, no hard-thinking?

We aren't in kindergarten. Using something like the E2DL is stupid simple. I carry a PD30 and it's more complicated. I had to search a building and it was still stupid easy.

Putting paper theory aside, I think these two lights (and everything like them) are tactical. They are easy to operate, simple, durable.

They have two settings. The very first setting that comes on when you either hold it down or press it is full bright.

When SWAT enters a house, they enter a room full force, no time wasted in a door frame. When it's pitch black and they enter a room (full force) it takes a human 1.6 or 1.7 seconds to react. By then the 2 or 3 or more of them that have entered have swept the room within 2 seconds. The light never turned off. The two guys behind the door man turn theirs on as soon as the front guy is clear. When they click the button it's full bright. Exactly what they needed.

I'm not trying to argue, just state that I think it's tactical by example :)

 

[Search]

Like all lights, when the E1B and E2DL were designed, certain compromises were made. You simply cannot have *everything.* With the E1B and E2DL I believe the idea was to have a "tactical" level of light (enough to temporarily blind or disorient an attacker) while retaining the clickie format and also providing two levels of output as high output is simply not always necessary.

While I disagree with the choice of UI -- a 2-stage selector ring at the tailcap similar to the U2, would have been far superior it would have made the lights larger and cost significantly more.

I do think you are right in assuming the two lights are designed to spotlight someone, as the TIR optics excel at this. But I am not too sure about room clearing either, as I would want a lot of flood (more compromise?) and sidespill. However, remember that the X200A (pistol-mounted WeaponsLight) had a TIR optic, the same as the last generation KL1 and similar to this generation's KX1, so clearly Surefire sees that there are some circumstances where a tight beam is useful (to be fair, the X200B was essentially an L4).

I see the E1B as being more of a duty officer's light -- the low is good for reading registration papers and writing tickets, and the high is good for approaching a suspect's vehicle, or when in pursuit of a suspect, etc. We often forget that a LEO's duties are more than hunting down BG's in an overstuffed warehouse (thanks Hollywood).

For really "tactical" things like room clearing, where it may be a bad idea to constantly have your light on, the clear choice is one of Surefire's twisty-based lights.

To the first part, nah. They sweep. When it's pitch black something like the E2DL's tight beam wouldn't matter. Trying to take it a whole room at once would be nice, but not practical. That's why more than 1 person goes in. Multiple eyes. While more flood wouldn't be bad, it isn't a necessity.

To the second part, lol. While your right, you would be surprised at how often it happens. Any open door = search. Except a residence obviously. Business, warehouse, factory, churches etc.. The really big ones are the ones that really **** people off.

I know one guy who only carries a mini-maglite. I don't know how.

The spotlight on the cars blind them, but you need a good light when you walk up to the side to check hands. When someone runs having a thrower to find them is nice, but usually the officer is already on their hills. If they get away it's back in the car with the spotlight.

^^That's a general statement so if anyone else in LE say's no we have searched big areas on foot I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

 

[Numbers]

That's my impression too. Whilst "civilians" think they want a 'tactical' what they actually need is 'practical' and I think the E2DL achieves the look of the first and the function of the second.

Exactly!

I have managed to resist the E2DL, I think the 2009 offerings will make my wait worth it.

 

[paulr]

It would be impossible to wrap "tactical" up into one strict definition. Most anything tactical for a police officer is probably not "tactical" for a sniper. I don't know for sure, but I would guess that not too many Delta Force guys need a low mode for writing a suicide bomber a ticket.

In fact they do. The low mode that you refer to is called a flare suppressor. :devil:

 

[richardcpf]

:laughing: To me this is the definition of "tactical"

 

[Lightguy27]

Well for the Las Vegas Police Officers who helped design the E1B it is exactly what they wanted and "tactically" suits them just fine...

 

[Bushman5]

That's my impression too. Whilst "civilians" think they want a 'tactical' what they actually need is 'practical' and I think the E2DL achieves the look of the first and the function of the second.

well, i'm a civvie and i do not want practical. I want a bloody white wall of light that blinds everyone within 1/2 mile. If i wanted low lumens like the E2Dl, i would light a Red-Bird match. Not dissing, ive owned a few surefires including the e2dl, but they just did'nt cut it for me. :naughty:

 

[chaos_23]

I'm with Search on this one. I'm a police officer, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone thinks a twisty tailcap is tactical in any way. I had myself a WTF moment when I read that on the CPF welcome mat post, but I figured I would just let it slide. For me, a momentary on with the ability to click on is exactly right. I carry a 6PL on my belt to back up my main duty light, which is a Streamlight Stinger LED (issued). I use the 6P for building searches, vehicle searches, felony stops, etc, and any time I have my pistol out and need a light.

There is absolutely no way I would want a twisty light for those situations. I don't have the time to switch my grip and turn the tailcap/bezel to make the light stay on if I suddenly need it on. I use the momentary on function, then click it on if I need it. To me, this is the only way that makes sense. I replaced the tailcap on my 6P with a clicky before I would ever carry it at work, because I absolutely hate twistys.

YMMV, obviously, but I find it interesting that the only people in this thread saying twist tailcaps are tactical are admittedly not law enforcement. I've learned a lot about lights in a short time here (I think this is like my fifth post, so I'm a flashlight noob, I know), but I've had plenty of training on the tactical side, and can't think of any situation in which a twisty light would be preferable.

Ok, rant off.

As for the strike bezels and such, I'm not real big on that either. If my light is all I have in my hands when you attack me, I'm gonna try to fight you off me with it and get some real weapon on you. For those who can't or don't carry a real weapon, I can see some usefulness to this weapon of opportunity. For me, it's not necessary and more of a hassle than a bonus.

 

[Search]

I use the 6P for building searches, vehicle searches, felony stops, etc, and any time I have my pistol out and need a light.

I replaced the tailcap on my 6P with a clicky before I would ever carry it at work, because I absolutely hate twistys.

I was waiting on you to say you replaced the tail cap :) I was confused.

As for the strike bezels and such, I'm not real big on that either. If my light is all I have in my hands when you attack me, I'm gonna try to fight you off me with it and get some real weapon on you. For those who can't or don't carry a real weapon, I can see some usefulness to this weapon of opportunity. For me, it's not necessary and more of a hassle than a bonus.

+1

After you learn PPCT and such, I don't want to be the one in trouble for beating a guy with a strike bezel when there wasn't deadly force.

Aggressive resistance isn't deadly force. If he pulled a weapon, I wouldn't want to be the guy with just a small flashlight to defend myself.

 

[Justin Case]

To be a tactical light, IMO the beam has to be bright enough to handle "interpersonal encounters" and the max brightness mode has to be immediately available. Things like flood beam, smooth beam vs ringy Cree beam, strike bezels, low modes for reading paperwork, strobes, etc are all supplemental.

The E1B IMO is not a good tactical light since you can't access its High mode immediately. If you use the light intermittently, such as during a search or manual strobing, you can end up cycling between High, Low, High, Low, ... if you cycle the tailcap switch within 2 sec. Only if you wait longer than two seconds between button presses will intermittent usage give you High, High, High, ....

Sequential mode access via tailcap button presses for multi-mode flashlights is just about the worst UI for a tactical light.

 

[BigD64]

Having been a LEO for over 20 years I will chime in on yet another "tactical" thread. To clear a room no light is better than a Surefire L4. The new Malkoff dropins for the 6P hosts are excellent as well. Gene's M60 MC-E W are unbelievable. Indoors you need a flooder. Too bright a hotspot and your vision gets impeded and reduces your ability to fully use your peripheral vision. Outdoors you need a light that has a good combination of flood and throw. A Fenix T11 or a Malkoff M60 have a good blend. In wide open outdoor areas an HID is best although the newer LED's are getting better a Tiablo A10 or Lumapower MRV have good throw for LED's. As for the Tactical switch I like a switch that dosen't make any noise. The light needs to come on at full power. It should also be tough enough to throw into a room with a concrete floor without breaking. Great for distraction provided you are not throwing your only light.

 

[Justin Case]

If you use as the primary illumination method the wall/ceiling bounce method, rather than always pointing the light in the direction where you are looking, you won't dazzle your vision with a light that has a bright hot spot. The wall/ceiling bounce method will scatter a lot of light and spread the light around the room pretty effectively. This method, combined with using the light in intermittent blasts rather than longer dwells and sweeps, is also a lot more deceptive in terms of someone trying to figure out where you are looking and where your position is based on the flashlight lighting pattern.

 

[Justin Case]

Deleted

 

[Howecollc]

If you use as the primary illumination method the wall/ceiling bounce method, rather than always pointing the light in the direction where you are looking, you won't dazzle your vision with a light that has a bright hot spot. The wall/ceiling bounce method will scatter a lot of light and spread the light around the room pretty effectively. This method, combined with using the light in intermittent blasts rather than longer dwells and sweeps, is also a lot more deceptive in terms of someone trying to figure out where you are looking and where your position is based on the flashlight lighting pattern.

But what if the walls and ceilling are covered with stalactites and stalagmites?