Fenner Drives Link Belts

[StrikerDown]

This place has it reasonably priced.
Frank

Powertwist

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x 0405010-5, 3L, 150-600, 3/8 in, 5 ft. PowerTwist Plus (0405010-5) = $24.62
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $24.62
United States Postal Service (1 x 1lb ) (Priority Mail: Estimated 1 - 3 Days): $7.95
Total: $32.57

Thanks, they do have good pricing, it looks like they are in the ball park with what we got with the 35% discount from MSC!

 

[Mirage_Man]

Thanks, they do have good pricing, it looks like they are in the ball park with what we got with the 35% discount from MSC!

Yeah, no kidding. Just goes to show you how expensive MSC/J&L is at their regular pricing.

 

[darkzero]

Thanks Drywolf. And I thought that ebay store was a pretty good deal. Close though. My next order will definitely be from them. :twothumbs

Yeah, no kidding. Just goes to show you how expensive MSC/J&L is at their regular pricing.

I always wondered why their prices are so much higher. No wonder they have so many "sales/discounts". I must say they do have good service though. I placed an order in the afternoon & received it the very next day. Totally unexpected. Turned out be a good deal on a Noga with the 40% off. I'm waiting for the next one. How often to the 40% days come around?

 

[Torque1st]

Remember both belts and pulleys wear with use. There are specs that cover V-Belt and pulley dimensions in the Machinery Handbook and at many machinery parts and service sites on the web.

 

[wquiles]

Is it possible that the belt is a little longer or shorter than the original? I can envision a situation where a different length belt will have your motor pivoted out (or in) so that the idler pulley changes location.

Luckily, you can add or remove a link easily AND put it back. :)


I used "Powertwist" link belts bought at "Woodworks" for my mill, and used the leftover (with the purchase of a 1 foot add-on) for my band-saw. They both run much smoother.


Daniel

Today I got my Fenner Belts, and after adjusting to length, and installing them, they are MUCH noisier than the "standard" belts. The noise comes from each link as it becomes attached and then separated as it goes arround. I have used these belts in the past several times, and this is the first time I encounter more noise.

I put the old "standard" belts back, and it is much quieter again. I will try to post some pictures tonight so that you can see how they fit. Weird :sick2:

Will

 

[Torque1st]

Segmented belts are always noisier than standard belts. Sometimes the noise is a vibration transmitted into the belt cover and a small rubber pad can cure it. The vibrations can also be seen in the surface finish of parts at times.

 

[wquiles]

Segmented belts are always noisier than standard belts. Sometimes the noise is a vibration transmitted into the belt cover and a small rubber pad can cure it. The vibrations can also be seen in the surface finish of parts at times.

For me, in the last 3 applications, the segmented belts (Fenner Power Twist Plus) have been more quiet, and with less vibration than the normal belts they replaced. These ones with my knee mill are the exception - I don't know why yet :confused:

Will

 

[wquiles]

OK, here are the photos...


"Standard" belts:

Fenner Power Twist Plus belts:

I played some more with them just now while taking these pictures, and a lot of the noise seems to come from the actual links themselves - friction between the links. It almost sounds as they would need "lubrication", like they are almost too stiff. Maybe they need to be run a little before they get more pliable?

Will

 

[darkzero]

For me on the mini lathe I can't say that it's quieter or louder than stock, just a different type of noise. I certainly don't consider it loud though. It does run smoother than my original belt but then again my original belt didn't look very great. I won't ever be changing back to a standard v-belt though.

I noticed if I don't have it tensioned enough it gets loud. It's also loud when spinning in reverse but they are not designed to run in reverse. Wait, I think I said that aleardy, yup I did. ;)

 

[Anglepoise]

Fenner belts don't do very well on small pulleys.
The ends of the links bind. Check to see if this is the case or not.
From the picture, that small motor pulley might cause problems.

 

[wquiles]

Well, I applied a very light coat of WD-40, removed the excess, and guess what? The noise from the belt is gone :twothumbs

Vibration-wise it seems similar than before - I have to try cut "something" to see if I can tell a difference while cutting ;)

Will

 

[precisionworks]

I always wondered why their prices are so much higher.

MSC, McMaster, J&L, Grainger, etc., are primarily sellers to corporations. Corporations normally are risk adverse - even if they could buy the same item on eBay for 70% less, they could not charge it on open account & pay for it 30 days later ... and eBay transactions involve more risk than purchasing from an industrial supplier.

Small commercial shops, like those run by many of us, are a one person show. So what if it takes an hour to find an item & save $900 (which I recently did on a batch controller) - not many of us earn more than $900 per hour:huh: We look for & find the best deal, while a larger corp will always order from McMaster or MSC.

Maybe they need to be run a little before they get more pliable?

I think that's probably the case. New Fenner belts are stiffer than a shirt fresh from the cleaners. After a few hours run in, they get much softer. The sharp belt edges also start to wear & conform to the angled V-grooves of the sheaves. They are more noisy in a double belt installation (like a mill) where one belt is moving at a faster or slower speed than the other. Perhaps because each belt generates its own vibration frequency or harmonic, and sometimes the harmonics are addative. Certainly a subject worthy of a $1,000,000 Federal government study:twothumbs

I noticed if I don't have it tensioned enough it gets loud.

They do like to be run fairly snug. If you can watch the belt under load, you'll see that there is one tension setting where the belt runs really smoothly. Too loose or too tight & you'll see either a standing wave or a moving wave going back & forth between sheaves. My Delta 6" belt/12" disc sander had a vibration at 60 Hz that would not go away, no matter what the tension. Same at 59 Hz & 58 Hz. Setting the VFD to 57 Hz (or lower) stopped all vibration - just another reason to install a VFD:thumbsup:

 

[darkzero]

MSC, McMaster, J&L, Grainger, etc., are primarily sellers to corporations. Corporations normally are risk adverse - even if they could buy the same item on eBay for 70% less, they could not charge it on open account & pay for it 30 days later ... and eBay transactions involve more risk than purchasing from an industrial supplier.

Very true. My current work orders a great deal from McMaster as well as my old work from Grainger for those reasons. I've always wanted to walk into Grainger, they have a location right down the street from me.

Since then I have realized that MSC is this type of company. They practically have everything in stock in large quantities & their service is excellent. They had another 40% off day today so I took advantage again.

Didn't realize they were such a large organization. I was searching for a product from some overseas vendors & came across MSC/J&L in Europe! They seem just as large over there!

 

[StrikerDown]

When I got home today my new Fenners were waiting in the MB! Thanks Brian!

I put the ends together on the two and mounted them, fired it up and thought the front one was going to jump off! It had a high spot as it rounded the pulley. Took it off and found one of the links was inside out with the small end of the taper facing out instead of in and the high spot was the large side of the taper not fitting in the pulley! I wanted to shorten that belt anyway so I took out the offender and put the belt back.

This time when I turned it on I noticed it was, Like Will said, louder that before, but it sounded more like a whirring noise instead of the harmonic rumbling. The harmonic is all gone and it just makes a consistent loud whirr!

I let it run for about 30 or so minutes while I welded up a broken machine part for work, then turned the mill off and inspected the belts and pulleys. The pulleys and belts all seemed much cooler than with the std. belts, and all seems fine.

I then put a scrap piece of aluminum in the vice that I had previously made a ¾” end mill pass on and did the same pass on the back side. All I can say is HOLY CRAP! The side cut using the Fenner belts is tons smoother! Running your finger across the two surfaces is like running your finger across 320 grit versus 1000 grit!

I hope you can see the difference.

Std. Belts:
All those little corcles are sharp eged little groves!

Fenner Belts:
On this one I fed in from the left pretty fast and it was pretty smooth, then I slowed down.

My feeding speed isn't very consistent... I need a power feed! (it this a good excuse to spend more$?)

This really makes me think I need to upgrade the printing presses at work that use drive belts. They don't turn as fast and use larger diameter pulleys so the difference may not be as dramatic but worth a try, hell it's only money!

 

[wquiles]

When I got home today my new Fenners were waiting in the MB! Thanks Brian!

I put the ends together on the two and mounted them, fired it up and thought the front one was going to jump off! It had a high spot as it rounded the pulley. Took it off and found one of the links was inside out with the small end of the taper facing out instead of in and the high spot was the large side of the taper not fitting in the pulley! I wanted to shorten that belt anyway so I took out the offender and put the belt back.

This time when I turned it on I noticed it was, Like Will said, louder that before, but it sounded more like a whirring noise instead of the harmonic rumbling. The harmonic is all gone and it just makes a consistent loud whirr!

I let it run for about 30 or so minutes while I welded up a broken machine part for work, then turned the mill off and inspected the belts and pulleys. The pulleys and belts all seemed much cooler than with the std. belts, and all seems fine.

I then put a scrap piece of aluminum in the vice that I had previously made a ¾” end mill pass on and did the same pass on the back side. All I can say is HOLY CRAP! The side cut using the Fenner belts is tons smoother! Running your finger across the two surfaces is like running your finger across 320 grit versus 1000 grit!

I hope you can see the difference.

Std. Belts:
All those little corcles are sharp eged little groves!

Fenner Belts:
On this one I fed in from the left pretty fast and it was pretty smooth, then I slowed down.

My feeding speed isn't very consistent... I need a power feed! (it this a good excuse to spend more$?)

This really makes me think I need to upgrade the printing presses at work that use drive belts. They don't turn as fast and use larger diameter pulleys so the difference may not be as dramatic but worth a try, hell it's only money!

Oh yeah! Very nice improvement, and just from changing belts :party:

Will

 

[precisionworks]

Very nice improvement, and just from changing belts

+1

With the standard V-belt, my Delta sander shook like a washing machine. After installing the Fenner belt, a nickle will stand on edge on the table, with the motor running at any speed (up to 57 Hz, which equals 95% of full speed).

 

[wquiles]

+1

With the standard V-belt, my Delta sander shook like a washing machine. After installing the Fenner belt, a nickle will stand on edge on the table, with the motor running at any speed (up to 57 Hz, which equals 95% of full speed).

Well, something is not quite balanced, or tight enough in my knee mill, regardless of the belt used. The mill does not shake like a washing machine - not even close, but there is definitely a vibration or a particular resonance in the machine while running. Again, nothing large in amplitude, but I can feel it by touching anywhere in the machine, and since the machine is sitting right on the floor (no rubber mounting feet yet), I can barely also feel the low-freq vibration through the concrete floor. It is cutting well enough (as the pictures on Al and steel show), but it can definitely be better.

I do have the rubber feet already (same I got for the lathe, each rated to like 500 pounds or so), but I want to first fabricate a square steel platform to raise the mill a couple of inches, and then mounting the rubber feet to the steel platform.

Having a VFD is "definitely" on the plans for this mill, but not in the very near term. What can I look for or try before trying a VFD?

Will

 

[Anglepoise]

Maybe it's my old eyes early in the morning, but there is something odd to me in this photo. The first belt does not look like it is flat parallel with the other. Could be an optical illusion.

It looks to me that the motor pulley has 3 positions, and the idler and spindle has 4. Nothing wrong with that , but are they all aligned up?
Might be worth checking.

 

[StrikerDown]

From my post above:

I put the ends together on the two and mounted them, fired it up and thought the front one was going to jump off! It had a high spot as it rounded the pulley. Took it off and found one of the links was inside out with the small end of the taper facing out instead of in and the high spot was the large side of the taper not fitting in the pulley!

This is one thing you can check. Each link is tapered and if one is put on inside out it raises hell with the merry go round.

I found this one because of the printing on the link was on the inside not like the others. but you can also see the bevel of the link that does not match the others... once you know what to look for.

This vibration is not a higher frequency though, it is more of a thump thump at the speed of the high spot passing two pulleys.

 

[StrikerDown]

Seeing how much improvement the belts made I can also see my self Putting on a quality motor that has been balanced. Also one that is speed adjustable would be real handy. I think a smooth power train on these light weight machines is critical to a good cut. Now Wills machine is not as light as mine so I think he has an advantage to start with. :devil:

I wonder if 3 phase motors also have smoother power output like a 12 cylinder is smoother than a 4 cylinder engine? (more power pulses per revolution type of thing)

Looking at the sine wave of three phase power there is more overlap of the voltage vectors, electrically it looks smoother anyway.