fixed lighting project

[Illum]

I'm looking around the house and I noticed that there are certain places that are just dim by default...due to the nature of the fixtures, even a 60W CFL is dim :shakehead

I was thinking to myself...again with what brlux has done to his apartment and what gizmo did to his Maui home. If I was going to discard the existing fixture and mount a junction box at its location with something like a xitanium driver I can stuff a 1/8" aluminum plate on the ceiling. 2-3 CREE XR-Es driven at 350ma each should sufficiently light a 4' by 5' room thats 6' high while keeping the temperature down. the aluminum plate can be painted over to match the color of the ceiling
My logic is, the efficiency of a CREE driven at 700ma would be lower than the same LED being driven at 350ma so why not split to 2 LEDs, increase output while distributing 700ma worth of heat more evenly?

[Question 1][Answered ]
Here is my issue, A xitanium (350ma) has a good value if your driving like 5-8 LEDs. Retrofitting each AC fixture with a xitanium (350ma) just to drive 1-3 LEDs is going to be hilariously expensive...anyone know of an AC LED driver that is <$30 and is optimized to drive 1-3 LEDs at 350ma in series?
I'm finally able to say this, I AM SICK OF RESISTORS! they were fun and simple but thats assuming your battery's always full.:candle:

[Question 2]
Anyone know what the current draw of the Zebralite H50 using alkalines on high is? I've clipped the H50 on the shower drapes and used it to shower [gotta love eneloops] and the light output is just perfect as a shower stall light, which this house lack and as a result only until mold grows to an uncontrolled rate before you can see anything is amiss...having flashlights around helps but I prefer to have a more permanent approach.

[Question 3][Answered ]
As for the garage, I'm inclined to use extruded aluminum as a header of sorts and mount a row of CREEs where the florescent light is, 2' above the table, I'm hoping if I can orient the LEDs pointing toward the far end of the table rather than directly down to reduce glare. I was wondering if theres any AC LED drivers out there that has 12V output or greater because I'm thinking of installing box fans in the extruded aluminum to promote cooling. 3 fans one between two extruded aluminum bars all blowing in one direction. I'm probably going to wire them up to a 12V 1A wall wort and the CREEs to a xitanium (700ma) driver. The work bench is about 5 feet long and I plan to mount 8 CREE XR-Es offset about 6" between each LED. this is all in planning of course...but I'm hoping by the end of the year I can have it done.

[Question 4][Answered ]
Anyone know where to buy CREE XR-Es aside from DX?
I know cutter has them but I can't figure out cutters website, they put everything together. optics, PCB, and LEDs in the same page...I dunno what link goes to what and 30 minutes later I walk out the door in frustration and proceed to throw citrus into the lake, then return and try again:shakehead

Digikey has a few, but they are about $9 each
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=XREWHT-L1-R250-009E5CT-ND

please tell me if theres a cheaper alternative again aside from DX please
I'll be buying up to ~20 CREE XR-Es [anywhere from P4-Q5 is fine as long as the vf is matched]

thank you!

 

[shortstack]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

DX has a few they have one that will do a total of (3 per string and 2 strings) $10.85 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10852)

and then a total of 3 $6.56
(http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.14035)

 

[SafetyBob]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

Illum, you are so right that multilple Xitanium drivers will set you back a large chunk of change if you use alot of them.

I have been looking at using Seouls new Archie AC driven led instead. At Mouser they are either $11 for the single or $24 for the double led. Run the numbers and you will find out that you might be slightly ahead by running regular P4's or whatever and your Xitanium transformers.

The only reasonable way to do what you are doing is to get a good, large 12VDC power supply, then keep your series lights geared around that voltage....maybe dimmable BuckPucks or just straight BuckPucks to limit current to individual strings, but unless you get a deal on that huge power supply (PLC Center normally good), you will still be ahead by using the Xitaniums.

But back to your post, 1/8 aluminum would be good...unless you can calculate out the proper size, some trial and error may be necessary to find an adequate size.

Question 1: Not really, I like the xitanium driver, I have been buying mine at www.theledlight.com, they have the best prices I can find. Anyone else find it cheaper?

Question 3: You have the right idea. Depending on what your extruded aluminim is (let's just say square tubing), then you could put a small fan or two in one end or sides to provide airflow and cooling to the tube. My uneducated guess is that you need to have an led every 2.5 inches over the length of that fixture to come close to what was coming out before (that has been my observation of the 24" and smaller cheap fixtures coming from China). Here again we hit the money pit with do I parallel and use half the transformers or use twice the transformers for max light output?

Question 4: I was going to recommend Digikey. There may be another reasonable supplier out there and I will do some research tomorrow and look at it. Will let you know if I find anybody.

I am currently contacting manufacturers and the like for more info and asking for a sample if they will let it go of their "new" AC powered leds. A bunch of trusted manufacturers are getting into it, most notably Sharp.

And yes I will ask if ORDINARY dimming means will work with their AC leds. I really don't want to do the DMX thing just to dim led's around the house. Cool, yes, but what a pain and I want easy, bulletproof reliability......that's why I really like the new Cree led......with multiple segments you could easily control brightness by turning on one, two, three or all four segments.....I can wire for that.

The wife will scream if I bring another rack mount unit into the house and stick in a closet.......

Bob E.

 

[blasterman]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

2-3 CREE XR-Es driven at 350ma each should sufficiently light a 4' by 5' room thats 6' high while keeping the temperature down.

I guess "sufficiently" is subjective. Personally I'd go with six spread around, but you can always ad more with no hassle if you're doing the DIY thing.

the aluminum plate can be painted over to match the color of the ceiling.

Yep....gotta love that alu bar/plate as a heatsink with it's flexibility. If it's the flat bar that everybody else is using here, then 6" spreads are fine and no fan is required.

My logic is, the efficiency of a CREE driven at 700ma would be lower than the same LED being driven at 350ma so why not split to 2 LEDs, increase output while distributing 700ma worth of heat more evenly?

Yep...I agree. You should also add that more LEDs at 350mA means it's easier to distribute light. At the opposite extreme I woulnd't exclude the option of using an MC-E either. However, that route concentrates a lot of light in a small package, and for direct lighting it can be very irritating. If you're bouncing the light off a ceiling or wall though you might want to look at an MC-E and simply work out what's cheaper.

I know cutter has them but I can't figure out cutters website

Yep...same frustration. Never let an accountant or engineer design a web-site:twothumbs

If you're mounting LEDs on aluminium bar, you can affix optics by just setting the lens (minus holder) on top of the star and using a dab of epoxy to dry in place. This assumes you are using stars, but this reason alone is a reason I pay an extra couple bucks for stars. Stars also make it easier to pry them off the heatsink at a later date if you change your mind and re-deploy them.

I can't help you with specific power suggestions, but what *I* do for my home and business (where I'm constantly adding LEDs) is use a computer PSU at a central location, and just run another line for each new project. It may seems awkward, but you have to run power to each LED array anyways, so if possible, why not just use one PSU at a central spot, and just run cheap speaker wire to each LED location? This makes is much easier to keep adding more LED clusters without worrying about powering them because computer PSU's are designed for huge current loads.

Another suggestion: Don't be afraid to mix neutral and warm white Crees for an even better color mix.

Try LEDsupply.com if you're in the states. XR-E's on stars are $7.50, and their shipping and service is great. They don't have the higher performance Cree's like the Q5/R2s, but I've given up on those for fixed lighting use because their high lumen performance seems to be at the expense of color.

 

[Paul Baldwin]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

Hi,
you're not going to like my suggestion if you don't like DX lol. I have bought a couple of these from Kaidomain http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=5640 , they are very cheap, IP65 rated if you want to use them outside and they do the job Available in 350mA and 700mA. As Blasterman suggests an mc-e may be a good idea but bouncing the light off something to cut down on the harshness of the led itself is definately recommended!
I know what you mean about the Cutter website too! I have ordered from it however and did receive the goods I ordered which is a bonus.
I've found a good alternative for small, 12v, active heatsinking is to use one of those computer heatsinks with a built in fan. The fans are rated to 50000 hours, are quiet and will cool an mc-e very well indeed and are only 2" around and less that 3/4" deep.
In DX's defence I must say I'm perfectly happy with the Q5's I ordered in both output and tint, if you can live with the order times don't discount them completely. I've also found their extremely cheap aspheric lenses sat on a Q5 with the dome removed, mounted in a plastic plumbing fitting give a nice, even wide spot as another alternative.

Paul.

 

[Mr_Light]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

My favorite base for linear LED lights is this 1.5 inch Aluminum Tubing with 5/16ths" holes every 1.5 inches on all four sides. The tubing is clear anodized which allows for direct mounting of emitters without fear of shorting. The smaller Xitanium drivers fit nicely inside. The holes allow for great heat dissipation allowing closer LED spacing.
Details about the tubing
http://www.8020.net/HT-Series-1.asp
This is where you go to get discounted tubing.
http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale

 

[Illum]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

SafetyBob, nice find for theledlight, at $40 its cheaper than cutter's $43, but still alot

Question 4: I was going to recommend Digikey. There may be another reasonable supplier out there and I will do some research tomorrow and look at it. Will let you know if I find anybody.

Extruded Aluminum isn't cheap...but its not terribly expensive either. I'll be taking measurements at ACE hardware tomorrow:huh:

blasterman, I agree on the MC-E, but they are going to be a pain to replace if I had a short somewhere and burned a die out...I might consider adding them in once issues are ironed out. Simply wiring MC-Es in series shouldn't require the replacement of the existing LED driver.:thumbsup:

Try LEDsupply.com if you're in the states. XR-E's on stars are $7.50, and their shipping and service is great. They don't have the higher performance Cree's like the Q5/R2s, but I've given up on those for fixed lighting use because their high lumen performance seems to be at the expense of color.

Wonderful , I'll definitely have them bookmarked! In the past I've always bought supplies on the fly...then as it turns out some supplies are unusable and wastes alot of money. So far I'm just jotting down a list of likely sellers :shrug:

I'll be starting off with at least a star or two, screw affix them to the aluminum boards and measure the temperature on it after a fixed number of hours and hopefully that should solve the perpetual question of "how much heat sinking is necessary?"

Paul, any advice is better than none, plus the fact that you've used it and would recommend it indicate that the product in question might be promising. :thumbsup:
The one you linked to runs on 220V...the only supply I can tap 220V from would be the laundry room...and that happens to be the brightest small room we have in the house

Mr_Light, I've used 80/20s back when I was participating in robotics in my high school...granted they are strong and rigid they are not designed for heatsinking and they are more expensive than extruded aluminum last I thought :thinking:
through I could be wrong...and usually I am

 

[blasterman]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

at least a star or two, screw affix them to the aluminum boards

Good idea. You can get alu bar from home improvement stores, and it works great. A lot of us are using the 1/8" thick by 1 1/2 wide stuff, and it's perfect for the job. Four inches between emitters is fine.

You can also screw mount, or use a tiny dab of super glue on stars, and it will work fine. As long as the base of the star is in firm contact with the heat sink. Thermal epoxies and other gimmicks don't seem to have an advantage in my tests.

 

[Illum]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

Good idea. You can get alu bar from home improvement stores, and it works great. A lot of us are using the 1/8" thick by 1 1/2 wide stuff, and it's perfect for the job. Four inches between emitters is fine.

You can also screw mount, or use a tiny dab of super glue on stars, and it will work fine. As long as the base of the star is in firm contact with the heat sink. Thermal epoxies and other gimmicks don't seem to have an advantage in my tests.

well, just on testing alone its a very good way of mounting, permanent screw mount would have an issue: the aluminum plate wouldn't be flat to mount to the ceiling. After the application of thermal epoxy I usually clamp the LED down until it dries, but I can definitely see the advantage if the heatsink is an aluminum block:devil:

EDIT: heh, as it turns out LEDsupply sells Xitaniums
for $28 each compared to the $40 TheLEDlight sells them at.
http://www.ledsupply.com/xitanium.php

 

[blasterman]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

Would you belive I actually have stars attached to heatsinks for testing purposes with rubberbands? Don't laugh - it works! :thinking:

Hey, MacGyver ain't got nothing on us :twothumbs

 

[Illum]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Heres what I have so far...figured if I can stick with US companies the faster I can get things going.

DRIVER INFO
One of this
LT-901004350U Lightech® Features: Max Output Current: 350mA
# Input Voltage: 100VAC-240VAC
# Output Voltage: 2VDC-14VDC
# Dimensions: 1.77"L X 1.77"W X 0.98"H
$15/each [http://www.ledsupply.com/lt-901004350u.php]
1-3 LEDS, series

3 of this [eventually]
Xitanium 12W 350mA Off-line Drive $28/EACH [http://www.ledsupply.com/xi-led120a0350c33f.php]
# LED120A0350C33F, Xitanium Features: Output Current: 350mA
# Input Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
# OutPut Voltage: 2.6-32.8VDC
# Output Power: 12W
1-8 LEDs, series
Paired with above
Xitanium Driver Connector $1.00/EACH [http://www.ledsupply.com/1365323-1.php]

15 + (29x3) = $102 on drivers before tax and shippingoo:

Chosen LEDs [All CREEs $7.49 each]
six of these
# CREEXRE-WW, Warm White Cree® XR-E Star Features: 70 lm @ 350mA
# 1000mA - Max Drive Current
# 3.3Vf - Typ. Forward Voltage @ 350mA
# 2600K-3700K - Color Temperature
# Lambertian Radiation Pattern
# Cree Part# XREWHT-L1-0000-008E7
http://www.ledsupply.com/creexre-ww.php
six of these
# CREEXRE-NW, Neutral White Cree® XR-E Star Features: 75 lm @ 350mA
# 1000mA - Max Drive Current
# 3.3Vf - Typ. Forward Voltage @ 350mA
# 4300K - Color Temperature
# Lambertian Radiation Pattern
# Cree Part# XREWHT-L1-0000-008E4
http://www.ledsupply.com/creexre-nw.php

hmm...$90 on LEDs

eventually...
Lowes was a bit of a drive, so I looked up ACE hardware and :wow: its only down the street.
gee...all they had in terms of aluminum plates were these sheets barely 1/32" thick :shakehead I found a 6" x 34" aluminum kick plate for doors that looks promising...but they want $18 for it. Any idea whether "satin aluminum" is of any good?

flat bars available
1/8" - 1" x 4 ft = $8
1/8" - 1-1/2" x 8ft = $20.50

L brackets that looks workable
1/8" x 2" - 4ft = $26, very promising heatsink...but a tad expensive:shrug:
1/16" x 1-1/2" - 4ff = $11, ordered one of these to test:duh2:

Square aluminum available
1" square only
8ft = $37
4ft = $13 [am I missing something here? am 8 footer costs nearly three times that of a 4 footer?!

just wondering, is CPU heatsink grease the same as the arctic alumina grease?

 

[shortstack]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Heres what I have so far...figured if I can stick with US companies the faster I can get things going.

DRIVER INFO

3 of this [eventually]
Xitanium 12W 350mA Off-line Drive $28/EACH [http://www.ledsupply.com/xi-led120a0350c33f.php]
# LED120A0350C33F, Xitanium Features: Output Current: 350mA
# Input Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
# OutPut Voltage: 2.6-32.8VDC
# Output Power: 12W
1-8 LEDs, series
Paired with above
Xitanium Driver Connector $1.00/EACH [http://www.ledsupply.com/1365323-1.php]

15 + (29x3) = $102 on drivers before tax and shippingoo:

Chosen LEDs [All CREEs $7.49 each]
six of these
# CREEXRE-WW, Warm White Cree® XR-E Star Features: 70 lm @ 350mA
# 1000mA - Max Drive Current
# 3.3Vf - Typ. Forward Voltage @ 350mA
# 2600K-3700K - Color Temperature
# Lambertian Radiation Pattern
# Cree Part# XREWHT-L1-0000-008E7
http://www.ledsupply.com/creexre-ww.php
six of these
# CREEXRE-NW, Neutral White Cree® XR-E Star Features: 75 lm @ 350mA
# 1000mA - Max Drive Current
# 3.3Vf - Typ. Forward Voltage @ 350mA
# 4300K - Color Temperature
# Lambertian Radiation Pattern
# Cree Part# XREWHT-L1-0000-008E4
http://www.ledsupply.com/creexre-nw.php

hmm...$90 on LEDs

eventually...
Lowes was a bit of a drive, so I looked up ACE hardware and :wow: its only down the street.
gee...all they had in terms of aluminum plates were these sheets barely 1/32" thick :shakehead I found a 6" x 34" aluminum kick plate for doors that looks promising...but they want $18 for it. Any idea whether "satin aluminum" is of any good?

flat bars available
1/8" - 1" x 4 ft = $8
1/8" - 1-1/2" x 8ft = $20.50

L brackets that looks workable
1/8" x 2" - 4ft = $26, very promising heatsink...but a tad expensive:shrug:
1/16" x 1-1/2" - 4ff = $11, ordered one of these to test:duh2:

Square aluminum available
1" square only
8ft = $37
4ft = $13 [am I missing something here? am 8 footer costs nearly three times that of a 4 footer?!

just wondering, is CPU heatsink grease the same as the arctic alumina grease?

the xitanium 350mA driver you can actually connect 9, if not 10.

lowes usually has the better selection comparing home depot with the aluminum.

on DX you can get 5 cree p4's 80-87 lumens (350mA) for $18 although its more of 6000k color temp.. sounds like you got it under control

if DX actually has it in stock it actually doesn't take too long for them to get to the US

yes it basically the same thing

i bought my drivers from theledguy.com his prices are really good, and his shipping is very fast even to alaska!
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=990

 

[Illum]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Would you belive I actually have stars attached to heatsinks for testing purposes with rubberbands? Don't laugh - it works! :thinking:

Hey, MacGyver ain't got nothing on us :twothumbs

heh, never though of that.

If something is stupid but works, its not stupid

the xitanium 350mA driver you can actually connect 9, if not 10.

hmmm...according to the datasheets

120VAC 350ma
1-8 1 watt luxeons

120VAC 700ma
6, 8, 10, 12 1 watt luxeons
1-3 Luxeon Vs

CREEs at 350ma draws 3.25V
3.25 x 0.35 x 10 = 11.375W, what do you know...right under the 12W spec
:huh:

Given current available cash I'll be starting out with 4 CREEs and estimating the radiation pattern and light intensity by positioning it in a variety of different places. I don't foresee any possible need to go to 10 LED but now at least I am certain it is possible, :thanks:

Last time I ordered LEDs from DX were SSC U bins and they came in inside flat bubble wrap which...not sure what happened but a shipment of 3 took at least two months and none of them worked. I'm surprised your order worked out for you. I guess CREEs are more hardy than SSC domes:candle:

 

[shortstack]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

the output of the driver is 32.8vdc so and each cree is 3.3v
so 32.8 / 3.3 = 9.93 so basically 9, you could do 10 if you really wanted

 

[Paul Baldwin]

Re: AC LED driver question(s)

Paul, any advice is better than none, plus the fact that you've used it and would recommend it indicate that the product in question might be promising. :thumbsup:
The one you linked to runs on 220V...the only supply I can tap 220V from would be the laundry room...and that happens to be the brightest small room we have in the house

Sorry too keen to try and help lol. I forgot all about the voltage difference, stupid as I worked for someone from Seattle for 18 months so was aware of it! 110v is relegated to building sites only over here. I've found a link to the type of fan I mentioned anyway http://www.onestoppcshop.co.uk/products.asp?partno=FANCSORB I've been using one with an mc-e running at 3.2 amps constant for a projector project, it barely gets warm to touch at all.
To mount the stars, definately get hold of some thermal glue. I initially mounted mine using heatsink compound, it's a pain getting the stars to sit flat using screws and the heads get very close to the soldering pads.
I've found another alternative to using bar aluminium too http://www.coolinnovations.com/products/heatsinks/natural-convection/overview sadly, no prices listed as yet, they appear to be new to the market, I must admit I can't see them being cheap tho.
I used pc heatsinks for my lights as cash is also an issue, the one type works particularly well, there are photos in the thread I started on the forum
10 crees at 350mA should provide you with quite a bit of very efficiently produced light!

 

[Illum]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Dads one of those "persisting unenlightened" ones that I have not been able to get through...rather odd considering he now EDCs a Fenix P1-CE and has a mag85 by the bed side. Generally he's not happy about the project...since it requires a little bit of demolition:candle:

I've gone and looked over the dimensions of things and compared it to the existing fixtures and drew up a few concepts in Autodesk inventor 2009. I had very limited dimensions in the height of certain objects, but mainly I have the footprint down correctly and the rest is just illustrative.

by CREE XRE Xlamp datasheet


I found a old pdf on luxeon stars and decided to do a little mock up...turned out kinda stupid (read below)


add them together and you'd get interesting designs:nana:


Heres my current proof of concept as I am waiting for my LEDs to arrive the LEDs will be mounted on an L bracket, which in term is mounted to an overhead truss in the shed via some C clamps. I'll need to figure out a way to test temperature without putting the tip of my tongue on it...how much are those laser thermometers cost these days?


the "eventually" concept for the bathroom...a 1 square feet 1/4" aluminum plate mounted on something that isolates it from the ceiling. I figured if I can mount it high [in this case low ] enough the AC vent could be a potentially valuable cooling mechanism for the aluminum plate.


so hows the luxeon star mockup stupid?
well...I bought a few empty CREE stars figuring I can try out a little re flow in the B&D oven...which turned out terrible, with a mortality rate of about 100%.
I took a segment of 1-1/2" x 1/16" x 1' L bracket and drilled holes through them to mount the stars on for testing purposes. why 1/16" because I don't have money to buy 1/8" which runs 4 feet minimum and they want $38. I bought a 1-1/2" x 1/16" x 4' for $12 after tax. Turns out those empty starts [WPG tech, CREE XLAMP 7090] were a bit smaller than the lumiled stars....so the holes can't fit luxeon stars [which is the only LEDs I have left to werk with]. Considering I made dimensions [not shown] in the drawings above, I'll have to recalculate certain dimensions when the new CREE stars arrive :shakehead:

 

[Ken_McE]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Illum_the_nation, on that last unit, if you spread out the LEDs more widely across the sink, each unit would have a larger area available to it for radiating. Right now the ones in the middle have to fight with the ones around them.

 

[Illum]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

You are correct and they will be parted to the sides, the availability of this project actually coming to life will depend wholly on how the 5LED bar will impress dad

I'm a drafting student but I personally don't own software, I made these on campus so I am unable to update them. Seems silly that the CAD computers reserved for drafting students aren't hooked up to printers and those that are have photo quality printers and five feet long plotters but are closed off and pin number locked unless theres a class:thinking:

So I screenshot as I go, and I apparently forgot to update a few

 

[lilmarvin4064]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

Man, sorry I didn't see this post sooner. You can get Xitaniums pretty cheap on Future Electronics.

http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...earch|advance|3|,Ny:True,Nrc:id-3928,Nea:True

http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...artNumberSearch|cree|1|,Ny:True,Ro:0,Nea:True


Plus, I just got an email from LedSupply saying they were going to get some warm-white K2 w/ TFFC next week. I'm just waiting for a datasheet.

I'm currently designing a lighting system for my kitchen, similar to McGizmo's, only better 18 warm-white K2s w/TFFC (if they are available soon) above and below cabinets on a dimmer. I was strongly considering the warm-white Cree P3s, but I'm not sure if I'll like the narrower beam angle and the "cree rings".

 

[lilmarvin4064]

Re: fixed lighting project with some AC LED driver question(s)

sorry my links didn't work.

go to the F.E. website and click the SEARCH button, with no search criteria. Then, on the right "Filter by", "By Category", click "semiconductors", then "lighting solutions", then "power solutions", then "LED driver modules" and you're set. You can then search by manufacturer.

I'm getting some crazy ideas (expensive ideas) seeing their 40, 60, and 80W drivers. The 4W and 8W drivers aren't a bad price.