Freewill Verses The Lack Of Control

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When Monocrom stated he wouldn't get married due to the fact many wife's leave their husbands, I asked him if he drove a car. My only point was people take great risks every day when they choose to drive but they don't let their fear keep them from doing what they want/need to do.

Well the conversation took a turn and headed into an automobile ownership/maintenance/driving verses being married and the varying degrees of control one is able to have on each endeavor.

Norm found the automobile/marriage analogy posts to be off-topic and of no benefit to the OP so he removed them from the Reason 101 why divorce sucks thread and started this new thread.


Edit: A big :thumbsup: to Norm for moving the following posts so those who choose to can continue the discussion.


Thanks again Norm.



Sorry to hear about what you're going through. Honestly, it's such true tales that keep me from getting married.

Monocrom,

Do you drive a car?

~ C.G.
 
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Monocrom

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Re: Reason 101 why divorce sucks

Monocrom,

Do you drive a car?

~ C.G.

Sure do! But I'm a car enthusiast. There's a certain degree, sometimes a very high one, of control that I have on the road. I have total control of my car. Marriage doesn't work the same way. If my spouse wants to leave me, I have no control over that. None. Also, in order to avoid confusion, not saying I'd want to to have total control over my wife. But I am saying that if a spouse decides "I'm done with this relationship." Well, absolutely nothing I can do about that. I don't want to control my spouse, but I'd like some control over the situation itself. When driving, I've got that. In a marriage, I don't.

When single, you've got a great deal of control over your Life. When married, you simply do not. If both are on the same page, it's a beautiful thing. If one spouse isn't, it becomes a mess or can become one down the road.
 
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Re: Reason 101 why divorce sucks

Can you give an example of true tale where car left his driver for another driver?

I can give you a million true tales of guys getting their bones broken while driving their cars,, but the fear of that happening doesn't stop us from jumping in, firing her up, and going for a drive.

~ Chance
 

Monocrom

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Re: Reason 101 why divorce sucks

I can give you a million true tales of guys getting their bones broken while driving their cars,, but the fear of that happening doesn't stop us from jumping in, firing her up, and going for a drive.

~ Chance

True. But once again, there is a certain level of control involved. In a marriage, there's none.
 
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Re: Reason 101 why divorce sucks

I just finished watching Dead Man Down. Interesting monolog from the opening scene:

Darcy: [holding infant son] It wasn't meant to be this way, you know? We make our plans, sure. But life... life is what happens to you along the way. You know, first I didn't want this. I didn't want to connect. I didn't want to get involved. But she kept on with me, you know. This is what life is. This is why we're here. To connect. To... to build. We're here to build something. And then we had Theo. And then I understood that... you know, she was right. We're not meant to be alone. You know what she said to me? She said that even the most damaged heart can be mended. Even the most damaged heart.

For what it's worth,

~ Chance
 
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Sure do! But I'm a car enthusiast. There's a certain degree, sometimes a very high one, of control that I have on the road. I have total control of my car. Marriage doesn't work the same way. If my spouse wants to leave me, I have no control over that. None. Also, in order to avoid confusion, not saying I'd want to to have total control over my wife. But I am saying that if a spouse decides "I'm done with this relationship." Well, absolutely nothing I can do about that. I don't want to control my spouse, but I'd like some control over the situation itself. When driving, I've got that. In a marriage, I don't.

When single, you've got a great deal of control over your Life. When married, you simply do not. If both are on the same page, it's a beautiful thing. If one spouse isn't, it becomes a mess or can become one down the road.


I really enjoyed your reply. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

What gives you the ability to have that degree of control? Being a car enthusiast I'm sure you'll agree driving skills aren't all that is needed. I don't know what you drive, but I'd bet money you have a thorough understanding of her power train, and a working knowledge of her maintenance needs. I'm also sure you know exactly what will happen if you don't attend to those needs. 95 mph into turn three car informs you, "I'm done with this relationship!" You're both heading toward the wall, you're both screaming, you're trying to correct (not going to happen with warn-out tires) you're trying to stop but you haven't even looked at the brakes for a year.....too much momentum....BAMB!

Admittedly, just as with cars, some women require more maintenance than others. Some of the high-maintenance models are worth the extra time & money, some aren't. Regardless, it's a foolish man who thinks he can operate a vehicle for years on end without giving any attention to its needs.

You're right, if it comes to the point of her deciding she is going to leave me, I have very little to no control. Too little, too late. Healthy control over a spouse (control being the power to influence or direct the others behavior, which I think both people in most marriages have to varying degree) is best used by controlling ones own actions. If I don't want my wife to leave me, I control her by treating her as being more important than myself. Likewise, in a healthy marriage, my wife "controls" me by treating me as being more important than herself. We both realize marriage isn't 50/50. Some days it's 90/10, other days it's 60/40. The recipe for a healthy marriage is when both realize the person they have the greatest ability to control is themselves, and then exercise that control for the benefit of their spouse.


True. But once again, there is a certain level of control involved. In a marriage, there's none.

If I'm correct, when you wrote this you had realized that unless you're the only driver, on a closed track, your ability to totally control your car depends also on the actions of the other drivers.

~ Chance



Edit: Not wanting my point to be missed I'll add,, Most women don't just up-and-leave a healthy marriage. Most (but not all) of the time they leave because the marriage has become unbearable, not just because someone "better" comes along.
 
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Monocrom

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Re: Reason 101 why divorce sucks

I can control my actions completely to try to get her to stay. Treat her well, be there for her no matter what, treat her like an absolute Queen ... And she might still decide to leave me for some Bad Boy who treats her like absolute $#!%.

Sorry, but I can't agree that one can influence their significant other to stay by simply controlling their own actions to influence the decisions of the other. If a guy decides he wants a younger wife and decides to toss away the older one, not as though she can do anything to stop him from leaving. Perhaps she has already treated him very well. Gone out of her way to do so. Worked two jobs to help out in putting him through medical school or Law school back when both were younger. Perhaps she took over the family finances because he wasn't good at math. Perhaps she spent several years going without because he needed to show how successful he was to his peers by buying that luxury sedan he drove himself to work and back. Getting that ridiculously expensive and pretentious Rolex. Buying a few Armani suits. And so forth.

She gave him children. None of that matters now that she has a few lines and wrinkles. He's still tossing her out like an old shoe.

You can control your behavior and actions to turn yourself into the best spouse on the planet! ... And still have your significant other leave you for a pretty face that couldn't even fry an egg. Or, some Bad Boy who can't hold down a job and only gives a crap about himself.

When I'm driving, my actions directly correspond to how my car behaves. When I take care of her, I know I can toss her around a bit and she'll enjoy it as much as I do. When I'm not in the mood for a drive, I don't have to worry that she won't be in her designated parking spot inside the garage. That she's not going to leave despite all the TLC I've given her.
 

jtr1962

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General Divorce Discussion.

When I'm not in the mood for a drive, I don't have to worry that she won't be in her designated parking spot inside the garage. That she's not going to leave despite all the TLC I've given her.
I guess you never heard of tow-away zones. Granted, the car isn't leaving of its own free will, but the end result is the same-it's not there the next day. The funny thing is most of the people I know who had their cars towed away because they didn't read the parking signs reacted worse than if their wife or husband had left them.

IMO, cars are bigger ball and chain than a wife (or husband if you're female). They require a HUGE amount of attention in terms of maintenance, money, and time. And what do they really give back in return? I can go from point A to point B on my bicycle is less time than driving in much of NYC. Even the "fun to drive" factor is limited given that you're on public roads with speed limits and other drivers. How often can you really push a car close to its limits without getting a ticket, or injuring yourself or someone else? Seriously, I think the relationship between cars and their owners is pretty one-sided, and not in favor of the owner. At least putting the same effort into a human relationship you have a shot at getting something equivalent back in return. Of course, finding the right person is difficult, if not next to impossible. Maybe people who claim to love their cars are just settling in a manner of speaking. They know they have a very low likelihood of finding a compatible mate, but a higher one of finding a compatible car. I still don't get it why people get so attached to their cars. I never get attached to any of my bikes. They're machines in my mind, nothing more or less. And my feelings on the matter are actually more in tune with how the younger generation feels.
 
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EZO

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Re: General Divorce Discussion.

Mattel recently came out with the new "Divorced Barbie" doll........She comes with all of Ken's things. :ironic:
 
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^ :laughing: Reminds me of a conversation I heard the other day. Two teens were talking about their future. One said: "I want to go to college and become a doctor." The other replies: "When I grow up I want to be like Barbie, she's got everything but a job."

~ Chance
 

rebelbayou

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Very interesting topic. I'd like to share my opinion. I have to somewhat agree with Monocrom. No matter how good, or bad, you treat your spouse, if they all of a sudden decide that they want out of the marriage, there's nothing you can do about it. In the state that I live in, all that is required to get a divorce is that you have to live seperate and apart from your spouse for 6 months. At the end of 6 months, the spouse files divorce papers and BAM you are divorced and there's nothing left for you to do but stand there with your hands open going WTF??? I look at it like this. If you are walking down the street and you see a beautiful woman, (or for you women,a handsome man) and you say, "I'm going to meet and marry that person," if that person doesn't want to meet and marry you, there's nothing you can do to make them meet and marry you. But if you are married and your spouse decides they want to divorce you, guess what? There's nothing you can do about it either. All your spouse has to do is move out, avoid you for 6 months, and the next thing that happens is your divorce papers are delivered to you. If you look at it from this angle, it seems kind of unfair. Don't get me wrong, if you are in a happy marriage, there's nothing like wedded bliss. But always be prepared and never, ever say it won't happen to me. I hope I don't ruffle anybody's feathers with this post, but my opinion, and it's only that, is that God created marriage and man created divorce. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and chime in with your opinions.

p.s. At least when you are single, you don't have to "OK" a flashlight purchase with the spouse. :whistle:
 
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About seven years ago my wife's sister decides to leave her husband of 18 years. WOW! Nobody saw that coming. Big surprise, especially to her husband. He and I had a few telephone conversations, all of which consisted of him trying to enlist my wife and me into helping convince his wife she was making a big mistake, that he really loved her, and how her leaving him was such an unexpected shock. The guy was desperate. All the while I couldn't help but remember how at every family function he usually arrived late, coming in a second car while his wife drove herself and their two young children. The reason? He was watching the game on TV. I remember the look on her face when right after dinner he would then leave early to go to the movies with his buddy's. Leaving his wife to take care of their two young children by herself. One of the things she later told my wife was that for about four years they worked one block away from each other. In all that time he never once asked her to meet him for lunch. It wasn't because he didn't have time. It was because he always went to lunch with his fellow police officers. Rubbing salt into the wound, all her coworkers knew where he worked. There's a lot more to the story but you get the idea. When you take your wife for granted, stop treating her as an important part of your life, stop listening to her.....don't be surprised when she decides to leave.

~ Chance
 

rje58

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Re: Freewill Verses Lack Of Control

Chance, I find your posts to be very insightful and well thought out. Well expressed also.

I find myself involved in discussions like this at times - not online, in my daily life. I understand that life is unfair - I believe that's one of the things that we have to accept early on and just deal with. Most of us reading these forums probably have gotten the better end of the deal in at least some ways - I'd guess that few of us are destitute, hungry or without any free time or discretionary income - life has been unfair to those who don't have those advantages... right? Life may have been unfair to us in other ways.

Free will (freedom) can cause a lot of problems, up to and including death. Totalitarianism and nannyism cause much worse problems in my opinion. A 'fair' world in which we all looked the same, had the same resources, the same workload, the same income, the same ... everything ... (that's the ONLY way to ENSURE "fairness", right?) - that world does not appeal to me at all.

So I embrace free will, freedom and the lack of "fairness" - wouldn't have it any other way. Back to the subject of relationships and marriage: I've been cheated on, lied to and conned. To the point that I could feel physical pain due to the emotional pain... yes, it was hard for me to try again, to seek out better, and there's still nothing perfect! But I'm in a very happy marriage now and have been for well over a decade. Life and freedom are hard, and risky. Is it worth it? MOST DEFINITELY is my answer.

My dad taught me a lot of things, and I owe him much. I remember him telling me: "Son, nothing worth doing is easy. Nothing worth having is free."

^ All true. Freewill can be a real female dog at times. :shrug: But I wouldn't have it any other way.

~ Chance
 
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Re: Freewill Verses Lack Of Control

Thanks rje58. There are many facets to this conversation,, giving much to be able to discuss. Not the least important being, we, as men, shouldn't let the fear of being hurt make decisions for us. Guys! That's why we have testosterone flowing through our bodies. It gets things done. I'm not saying we shouldn't exercise caution. We should. Especially when trying to choose a mate for life.

~ Chance
 

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