general LED light bulb replacement question(s)

5S8Zh5

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Greetings. Not really in the know with LED light bulb replacement (kitchen lighting). I know we have a half dozen or 7 overhead individual outlets, and we only really need 3 going. Just used up our last from a box of LED bulbs and thew out the box, so I just pulled the last one and it was a:

GE 10W 110mA 120VAC 60Hz LED. Says 800 lumens, 5000K

Looking up bulbs, they also have 60W.

Does the 10W use less electricity?
 

LRJ88

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The short version is yes, in rough numbers and not taking into account all other possible factors the 10W bulb will use 1/6 the power of the 60W, or it's able to run 6 times longer for the same energy value.

Are the new bulbs you're looking at also LED or are they incandescent? 60W on a LED would generate a fair bit of light.
 

louie

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10W LED is about what a 60W incandescent was like in light output (800 lumens), often called a 60W equivalent. Can we even buy incandescent now? Or any reason to use them?

I would recommend High CRI (color rendering index) so food looks normal. A CRI of 90 or higher is pretty good. 5000K is color temperature in degrees Kelvin, and that is called "daylight" and bluish/cool compared to a traditional incandescent. Some people prefer to get a color temperature like incandescents, which is more like 2700K, sometimes called soft white, which is more yellow. I think there are lights in between those color temperatures, the choice is yours.

I go to Costco where they have Feit brand, which have been fine. I only use standard-shape bulbs.
 

Lynx_Arc

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Not necessarily. Bulbs are "rated" today as equivalent output to the old incandescent bulbs of the past. An old 60 watt incan bulb puts out about 800 lumens so CFL (fluorescent) and LED bulbs that put out close to that amount of light are "considered" to be 60 watt bulbs. As time has gone on the CFL bulbs have been surpassed in efficiency now but in the past CFL and LED bulbs were very close in efficiency which commonly is measured in Lumens per Watt. The first LED bulbs and last CFL bulbs had about 60-80 lumens/watt output and todays LED bulbs are about 80-110 lumens/watt output. That GE bulb is not really a 10W bulb exactly as 110ma x 120v is more like 13 watts. There is some fudging going on with how bulbs are presented both in lumens output and wattage and the lumens/watt varies all over the place.
IMO unless you are using a bulb a tremendous amount once you go from incan to CFL the drop in power is huge and savings are substantial but going from a CFL to an LED bulb the difference is not a lot comparably. If one wants to save money after you get away from old incan tech to CFL or LED you should start looking at other energy consuming devices like AC and Heating and dryers and fridges and televisions. With a KWH costing from about 10 to 20 cents (guessing) it takes a long time using light bulbs to save a dime by finding a bulb that is 10% more efficient than another bulb the difference in power consumption is minimal. 1 watt of power saved takes 1000 hours to save a dime or so that is 8 hours a day for about 4 months or about 3 KWH a year from 30-60 cents perhaps so it could take you 10+ years to pay off that more expensive LED bulb that is a little more expensive if it lasts that long. My advice is to look for a bulb that is pleasing (color/tint) and will give you decent service and the cost/year of the bulb itself not the power it consumes as much. I still have CFLs in most places and will continue to use them till they burn out and till I run out of replacement bulbs as I don't use light bulbs that much I replace one about every 3-5 years. LED bulbs may claim to last a long time but often the electronics in them don't last long enough for the LEDs to degrade so as to be no longer useful so don't buy blindly into claims of 20 year life to plop down $10 on a bulb I figure on LED bulbs lasting perhaps 10 years in medium duty. I have CFLs that are over 15 years old in fixtures that I probably use less than 20 hours a year in.
 

kaichu dento

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Whatever you do, make sure to use 4500k or higher in work areas like the kitchen. The 5000k bulbs you've got should be great, but if you're only using three fixtures I'd opt for more output, like the now easily available 100 watt equivalent bulbs.
 

Lynx_Arc

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Whatever you do, make sure to use 4500k or higher in work areas like the kitchen. The 5000k bulbs you've got should be great, but if you're only using three fixtures I'd opt for more output, like the now easily available 100 watt equivalent bulbs.
I agree if you are going from incans you can bump up a notch on the relative lumens scale and still come out cheaper in usage costs.
Beware that often the 100 watt equivalent LED bulbs tend to be a lot more expensive than 60 and 75 watt versions.
I'm still hoping for higher output LED bulbs to become mainstream in pricing as in large areas 1500 lumens isn't enough (100 watt EQ).
If you need more than a 100 W EQ bulb you may want to consider investing in a native LED fixture that better covers the light output needed.
 

kaichu dento

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I agree if you are going from incans you can bump up a notch on the relative lumens scale and still come out cheaper in usage costs.
Beware that often the 100 watt equivalent LED bulbs tend to be a lot more expensive than 60 and 75 watt versions.
A lot cheaper on usage costs, even with brightness increased, and the prices are dropping fairly quickly on the 100 watt equivalent bulbs. First one I ever saw was about $70 in Japan about 10 years ago!
 

Lynx_Arc

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A lot cheaper on usage costs, even with brightness increased, and the prices are dropping fairly quickly on the 100 watt equivalent bulbs. First one I ever saw was about $70 in Japan about 10 years ago!
They are a lot cheaper, used to be around $20 for a single 100W LED bulb now down to $20 for 4 bulbs last time I looked. As long as I have several 100W and 60 and 40W CFLs I probably won't buy any LEDs for now. I actually light most of my room when I'm on my computer or watching tv with USB LED modules powered by 2x18650 batteries in a cheap power bank.
 

kaichu dento

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They are a lot cheaper, used to be around $20 for a single 100W LED bulb now down to $20 for 4 bulbs last time I looked. As long as I have several 100W and 60 and 40W CFLs I probably won't buy any LEDs for now. I actually light most of my room when I'm on my computer or watching tv with USB LED modules powered by 2x18650 batteries in a cheap power bank.
Like I said, years before a single one of them showed up on a shelf anywhere this side of the ocean, I found 100 watt equivalent bulbs (with horrible tint) in Japan for $70, and at the time, 60 watt equivalent was in the $20 range.

Anyway, now that they're so cheap over here, I replaced all my bulbs with the 60 watt equivalent LED's a couple of years ago, and now with the 100 watt equivalents being down to $15-20, I've been buying them with no hesitation when I find the spots that need them.
 

Lynx_Arc

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Like I said, years before a single one of them showed up on a shelf anywhere this side of the ocean, I found 100 watt equivalent bulbs (with horrible tint) in Japan for $70, and at the time, 60 watt equivalent was in the $20 range.

Anyway, now that they're so cheap over here, I replaced all my bulbs with the 60 watt equivalent LED's a couple of years ago, and now with the 100 watt equivalents being down to $15-20, I've been buying them with no hesitation when I find the spots that need them.
I'm still hoping that 150 and 200 watt LED bulbs start to appear in stores at affordable prices. With the greater efficiency the power requirements of a 200 watt LED is manageable in all fixtures, it is only the heat aspect (cooling the LED itself) that is the major obstacle.
I guess in time sooner or later as LED efficiency and cost improve we will see brighter and cheaper bulbs. I sort of wish they would standardize on a new "bulb" design for lamps that is for LEDs natively, not a screw in socket but rather a sort of platform that incorporates some built in heatsinking for the LED to help wick heat away. Screw in bases IMO should be obsoleted by better design with LEDs in mind.
 

Dave_H

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Some of the very early LED bulbs including Philips had dismal efficacy, as low as 25 lumens/Watt but these are long
gone. Ordinary 60W equivalent LEDs were on par with CFLs about 10 years ago (13W -> 800 lumens). LEDs continue
to improve, now 800 lumen filament LED bulbs consume as low as 6.5W, nearly 10x better than incans.

Incans are still available in stores here but I am sure not used nearly as much, given the widespread LED bulb
availability and generally good prices. Lots of good deals but need to take into account life of the bulb. A 20k hour
bulb (assuming it's really true) with initial price higher than 10k hour bulb is not necessarily costing more; including
reduced e-waste though I suspect is not being handled much yet if at all for LED bulbs.

Regarding 100W equivalent, regular price is still a bit high but I am seeing discounted ones which seem decent,
but many are 10k hour life. One which claims 25k hours has a huge heatsink, looks sort of like some kind of
spacecraft, but not a common offering.

Regarding 200W equivalent, Philips has one (3000 lumens, 24W) but it's very large and pricey, CDN$35 at Home
Depot here; better off to use two separate bulbs or other solution. Larger bulb needs more heatsinking to give it
any sort of reasonable lifetime.

Efficacy differences may not be huge, but could pay for the bulb. Typical power cost here is $0.25/kWh after everything is
included. If I compare 60W eq. using 9W (common) with 6.5W (slightly expensive) over 10k hours, 25kWh and $6.25
is saved. In fact I did find some 7W/10kh bulbs for <$3 each in 4-pack, regular OTC retail.


Dave
 

Dave_H

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Oops sorry, tried to say that A19 is the common bulb envelope size; E26 is the common socket size,
there are smaller ones E12 and E17.

Dave
 

Lynx_Arc

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We have cheaper electricity here a little over 10 cents per KWH so energy savings doesn't equate as quickly into returning investment on bulbs etc. Where you would save $1 in a year we only save about 40 cents on power so it takes a 2.5 times as long to recoup your investment making tossing my 22 cent 40 and 60W CFLs away a lot less attractive to me. I figure as short of life they give me compared to LED that I won't lose a lot of money on usage cost over LED usage over the same amount of time plus not having to spend time and money going to the store and hoping the decent LED bulbs that are discounted via subsidizing by the power company are not out of stock. I figure that by the time I run out of bulbs LED bulbs will be a lot more efficient and cheaper to invest in and instead of having an 80-100 lumens/watt bulb for 10-20 years I will have 120-150 lumens/watt bulbs for 5-10 years.
I think 10 years down the road LEDs will have gotten 20-40% more efficient and similarly cheaper in price such that we will be seeing $4 140 lumens/watt bulbs with decent color rendition in stores
 

Dave_H

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We have cheaper electricity here a little over 10 cents per KWH so energy savings doesn't equate as quickly into returning investment on bulbs etc. Where you would save $1 in a year we only save about 40 cents on power so it takes a 2.5 times as long to recoup your investment making tossing my 22 cent 40 and 60W CFLs away a lot less attractive to me. I figure as short of life they give me compared to LED that I won't lose a lot of money on usage cost over LED usage over the same amount of time plus not having to spend time and money going to the store and hoping the decent LED bulbs that are discounted via subsidizing by the power company are not out of stock. I figure that by the time I run out of bulbs LED bulbs will be a lot more efficient and cheaper to invest in and instead of having an 80-100 lumens/watt bulb for 10-20 years I will have 120-150 lumens/watt bulbs for 5-10 years.
I think 10 years down the road LEDs will have gotten 20-40% more efficient and similarly cheaper in price such that we will be seeing $4 140 lumens/watt bulbs with decent color rendition in stores

Not to open too big a can of worms, but up-front cost of power is just part of the equation.

Electricity generated from fossil fuels, burning coal especially, has other costs. So, I consider
saving a bit of my own money good, but just part of the bigger picture; do what I reasonably can.

(An aside, my electric bill contains combined 13% federal/provincial tax; not sure the extent this is done
in other locations).

I am not inclined to continuously keep replacing LED bulbs with the most efficient currently available. Some
older ~800 lumen bulbs in the 11-13W range are candidates though, and not thrown but given away if
still working, especially if lightly used, as they are still as good as CFLs and way ahead of incans.

Towards the low end I do strive for most light available at lowest power. Front porch light is a filament LED,
350 lumens at 3W, approaching 40W equivalent but not quite. Earlier I was using 2-3W bulbs which were
not as bright, but still good enough. I even tried an RGB LED with settable colours, neighbours may
be scratching their heads a bit though...

Dave
 

Lynx_Arc

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I'm not worried about being green as most of the fuel burned for our electricity is natural gas here. I added in all the taxes and fees to get a little over 10 cents per KWH here. In my state we have lots of natural gas and oil so energy costs are pretty low here. I did go to a store today (Home Depot) and saw a few interesting things including 150,200, and 300 watt LED bulbs costing $15-$20 each and 3 way 50/100/150 watt LED bulbs and the lumens/watt were pretty good... over 100 on most of them for some reason LED bulb lower than about 75 now seem to have lower efficiency it used to be the opposite way. They even had some LED bulbs with built in motion sensor, on/off dawn/dusk, battery backup bulbs made by Philips. If I had my chandelier out of storage I would be interested in the new LED bulbs with the yellow thin wire like emitters in them.
 

kaichu dento

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I sort of wish they would standardize on a new "bulb" design for lamps that is for LEDs natively, not a screw in socket but rather a sort of platform that incorporates some built in heatsinking for the LED to help wick heat away. Screw in bases IMO should be obsoleted by better design with LEDs in mind.
I've thought about this before too, but the heatsinking aspect would really help change the game in a big way.

They even had some LED bulbs with built in motion sensor, on/off dawn/dusk, battery backup bulbs made by Philips.
I've been using a couple of the photosensor bulbs for a while now and really like them. I'll still install sensors when it's an option, but some situations are just more easily handled with the built-in aspect.
 

Lynx_Arc

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I've thought about this before too, but the heatsinking aspect would really help change the game in a big way.
They would have to build in the power connections into the heatsinking platform and make it so you can swap out the heatsink/connector module for a larger/smaller one and have bulbs that require more heatsinking sold with and without the module(s).
You could make the modules blend in to look like the lamps they are installed in perhaps even offering standardized shells to hide the modules like the bulb sockets that fit into lamps that can have push switches, twist ones, pull chain, 3 way, etc. that fit in a snap on shell.
I've been using a couple of the photosensor bulbs for a while now and really like them. I'll still install sensors when it's an option, but some situations are just more easily handled with the built-in aspect.
I say that for a quick one time thing the sensor idea is appealing but when you have to replace the bulb a few times buying a stand alone sensor adapter (if it fits) is probably cheaper in the long run and doesn't limit you to one brand/size bulb. I've seen the battery bulbs on Ebay for a few years now and I have both good and bad things about them in that they constantly have the bulb available in the socket to charge it and I can't see how you can recharge the battery in it without using the bulb as normal sockets don't have power to the bulb while it is off. I've sort of seen some bulbs advertised "auto on" type modes it will come on when power goes out. I don't see this working without power to the bulb either as it has no way to know there is power or not.... without power to it so it would probably come back on in battery mode if on and the power goes out but if off it would stay off.
 

Dave_H

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I guess we've strayed off what the OP was originally asking, but hopefully all good info. Bottom line, replacing 60W equivalent bulbs there are lots of choices using typically 6.5W to 9W, a few tints (2700K, 3000K, 5000K) common, dimmable and non-dimmable, filament LED or regular SMT design, clear or frosted, at regular pricing and discount level. And as noted there are specialty bulbs with light or motion sensors, or battery backup, tri-lights etc. Some bulbs now have selectable tint, which can be changed by toggling the on/off switch with certain timing. Downside is the extra cost. And then there are single-colour or RGB bulbs, getting a bit fancier... The 7W 800 lumen filament bulb I mentioned is actually a smaller bulb size (A15 v. A19) so might fit some tighter spaces; it also has better light dispersion towards its base than SMT LED bulbs due to the filaments facing outwards, and in some designs are angled for even better dispersion. Even discount/dollar stores have good deals sometimes. I found 100W eq. (14W actual) and 75W (12W actual) bulbs for
 
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