Help me Understand Why SureFire are so Expensive

[kongfuchicken]

The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.

Compared to which model? the 6P? the L4?
I agree that a lot of SF models aren't updated as of now and that it helps put things in perspective to show that the emperor is naked once in a while but that doesn't make it much of a fair comparison nonetheless...
Some of the SF designs are older than a good percentage of the people on this board; they were top of the line back when they were released, just like the tk10 right now.

The only model that's somewhat in the same technological generation is the U2A, and when that model is released, you'll be able to say that you can't find a Fenix (or any other brand) model in ANY price range that has the same features and performance...

The price tag on the SF keeps engineers like PK and people on their CS team employed. Some of us might not think of having the latest gadget feature or an unconditional warranty that'll be kicking long after I retire as our priority in a flashlight purchase but I assure you some people do. And as long as they are there ordering from SF, SF will never mind that a few people roll their eyes at their prices. Therefore, that's why SF's are so expensive to us... because they had never once needed to justify their prices to you or me or anyone.

 

[BabyDoc]

I agree with you about the Fenix T1, but the TK10 is a different light and addresses the problems that the T1 has. So what if it took Fenix a few months to design the TK10, so long as they got it right? It's just a flashlight we're talking about here - not some state of the art military nuclear bomb that requires months or years of R & D!

From my knowledge, not all LED Surefire lights have perfect colour rendition. It's all part of the lottery. whether it's Fenix, nitecore, wolf-eyes or Surefire etc, they all get their LED's from one source.
What's wrong with the beam shape of the TK10? Some say that it's one of the best in terms of throw and spread. Surely up to par or surpasses a similar Surefire.
So from collected information we can assume that the TK10 is better than a similar Surefire in output, runtime, beam pattern and price. Is equal with the Surefire in durability. But is beaten by the Surefire in terms of construction and aesthetic appeal. If you give all points equal weighing, wouldn't the TK10 come out as the winner and as the "better" light?

A tactical light may not be like a state of the art military bomb that requires years to develop. However, a professional's life may depend on the design of a Tactical light. SureFires are lights are well thought out lights made for professionals. They are not lights that look like professional lights to be used only by amateurs. Fenix puts out the T10 as quickly as they put out the T1, both supposedly for tactical needs. It is only a couple of weeks since the T10, has been released. Let's hope they have it right this time. If I were a soldier in the field, I would rather have a time tested SureFire design than a Fenix wantabe, yet to be proven tactical.

While there IS some variation in tints between one LED and another, overall I have found less variability with people's accounts of various SureFire lights than I have of Fenix. The recent crop of Fenix lights with the Q5 are "cold" by comparison to the recent SureFires. You could argue that none of the current LED's are accurate and I would have to agree. However, I believe SureFire comes closer than does Fenix. Actually, not all Flashlight manufacturers get their LED's from one source. I asked SureFire about the the Cree LED in the L1, which to my eyes, gives better color rendition than any Q5 I have seen. I was told that this LED was SureFire's own proprietary design, made to their specifications. I can't comment on the T10 in particular on its beam, color, throw, or other properties. It may be different, I haven't tried one as I have tried almost every other recently made Fenix lights. If the T10 can stand up to SureFire, it is the first Fenix light that can. However, would you bet your life on an unproven Fenix design, when for a few extra dollars more, there is SureFire alternative? Only, if you were a casual user, would PERHAPS, the T10 be the better deal.

 

[Handlobraesing]

A tactical light may not be like a state of the art military bomb that requires years to develop. However, a professional's life may depend on the design of a Tactical light. SureFires are lights are well thought out lights made for professionals. They are not lights that look like professional lights to be used only by amateurs. Fenix puts out the T10 as quickly as they put out the T1, both supposedly for tactical needs. It is only a couple of weeks since the T10, has been released. Let's hope they have it right this time. If I were a soldier in the field, I would rather have a time tested SureFire design than a Fenix wantabe, yet to be proven tactical.

VERY VERY WELL SAID AAA+ +1

 

[skyline_man]

However, would you bet your life on an unproven Fenix design, when for a few extra dollars more, there is SureFire alternative?

You are making it sound like if its a state of the art life saving device here. For goodness sake, its just an aluminium tube with an LED and a switch. You press the switch - the light goes on, simple. No millions of dollars needed for R&D here. Heck, even a random member on this forum can design and put together a Surefire beating flashlight if given the right parts and equipment.
There are numerous tests of the T1 proving itself that it is "built like a tank" and judging from the design and spec of the TK10, I can't see why it will not hold up just as well as the T1.
A recent post by a police officer said that he was very happy with his TK10 and that it outperformed his much more expensive flashlights when it comes to tactical use.

Being the best is relative and depends on the criteria you judge something by. When you compare the TK10 with a similar Surefire, how do you come to the conclusion that the TK10 is not in the same league? Because it doesn't look as good, or it doesn't have enough R&D, therefore it is not as good? If you look at the argument from another perspective, someone else could say that the Surefire is not in the same league as the TK10 because its output is not as high and efficient as the TK10 for its price.
The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.

 

[BabyDoc]

You are making it sound like if its a state of the art life saving device here. For goodness sake, its just an aluminium tube with an LED and a switch. You press the switch - the light goes on, simple. No millions of dollars needed for R&D here. Heck, even a random member on this forum can design and put together a Surefire beating flashlight if given the right parts and equipment.
There are numerous tests of the T1 proving itself that it is "built like a tank" and judging from the design and spec of the TK10, I can't see why it will not hold up just as well as the T1.
A recent post by a police officer said that he was very happy with his TK10 and that it outperformed his much more expensive flashlights when it comes to tactical use.

Being the best is relative and depends on the criteria you judge something by. When you compare the TK10 with a similar Surefire, how do you come to the conclusion that the TK10 is not in the same league? Because it doesn't look as good, or it doesn't have enough R&D, therefore it is not as good? If you look at the argument from another perspective, someone else could say that the Surefire is not in the same league as the TK10 because its output is not as high and efficient as the TK10 for its price.
The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.

I am not JUST a SureFire lover. I love both Fenix and SureFire for what they are. I have both. In fact, right now I have a LOD on my keychain, where there is no SureFire that can compete. I also own a L2D, P2D, and L1D Rebel. They are nice lights for what they are.

Have you ever owned a SureFire?. (I own an A2, EL2, EB1, and an L1.) I would tend to doubt you have.. It sounds like you are convinced it isn't worth owning. However, if you did own a SureFire, then perhaps you could talk from experience and say Fenix, from your experience, WAS in the same league. Nobody could then argue with that opinion, although we might still differ. Even if you don't own a SureFire, I don't think this is worth arguing about. You are still entitled to your opinion, and I am glad you are enjoying what you have. That's really all that counts.

 

[js]

. . .

The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.

Well, first of all, neither "problem" is a problem. That's part of the fun of CPF. We talk about lights, and, inevitably, disagree at times. If the discussion remains respectful, this is actually enjoyable.

Second, I would suggest that you consider the possibility that perhaps there are considerations of R&D and cost that you might not be taking into account. tvodrd's post much earlier in this thread is a good example. Someone who really knows about HA and Chemkote and o-ring channels and fit and finish is able to clearly point out where some of the dollars might be going. For maybe some more such example, you might check out the SF A2 link in my sigline.

But in any case, we're all free to keep our own counsel and spend our dollars as we wish, and we're all free to voice our opinions on such things in a respectful manner. This is not a problem, it's part of the culture, part of the community here at CPF. However, I readily admit that there is often a lack of respect on both sides of this debate.

 

[bondr006]

After I was gifted with my first Surefire....it did not take me long to figure out why they were more expensive than many other flash lights. Up to that time, I was in the process of accumulating a rather large collection of Fenix lights. Mixed in with them were many other assorted lights of Asian origin. To be honest, I never had one single problem with any of my Fenix lights...or any of the others for that matter. My preferences in lights changed...not because I didn't like Fenix or the others....but because I liked the Surefire lights much better. There are many reasons why I like the Surefire brand better, and think that they are worth the added cost. They have a feeling of substance and balance that I have not felt in another light. They have a fit and finish that sets the standard. The machine work is just absolutely amazing. One example is the knurling on the Surefire just grabs your hand like Velcro. In my experience, I have never felt any knurling equal to that of Surefire. The pieces of the Surefire lights are not molded, but machined out of solid pieces of very high quality aluminum. The HA finish is very durable. They are made and assembled in the United States. They come with unequaled customer service, and a lifetime warranty that guarantees fix or replace with no questions asked. It is not just a flashlight, but a fine piece of equipment or tool if you will, that you can own and trust for the rest of your life. These things all add up, and in my opinion more than justify the cost of the Surefire brand of lights.

 

[Fird]

Marketing.

 

[Marduke]

The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.

Everyone is assuming that if you bash one brand, you must not have tried it. Otherwise, you would obviously know better.

What about the brand X owners who are disappointed with brand X and decided to go with brand Y, who is more reliable with better features (and who just happens to also be cheaper than brand X )?? This is clearly recognized with other products and brands, so why is the stretch to flashlights so hard to make for some people?

 

[Dreck]

It's a Surefire thing...if I have to explain you wouldn't understand.

 

[Fooboy]

Lol.

Skyline_Man's first thread at CPF (bashing SureFire) ... closed within 4 posts.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162817

You all should read a few of his previous posts before you respond seriously.

**********

Regarding Surefire vs. other lights ... they are all useful in their own right. I think the comparison between cars is adequate.

Lets say Mercedes vs. Honda

I own a 2004 Honda Accord V6. I love it. Gets me from A to B, 240 hp, leather, not too expensive. Its a good value, TO ME. I don't own a luxury car like a mercedes but I've driven/ridden in them (or the like, BMW M3, Lexus etc) plenty of times. And although I wouldn't spend the money on one I could see why someone would. They hug the road, soundproofing is amazing ... almost no road noise, powertrain is powerful yet smooth, trim is impeccable. There is an attention to detail that is tangible.

Sure, a Honda can get you from A to B just like a $80,000 mercedes ... heck, you can buy a subaru that could get you there faster than mercedes at 1/4 the price ... and thats fine.

Some people appreciate the finer things and are willing to pay for it. Nothing wrong with that either.

:candle:

I'm new to flashlights but I like surefires. Id rather buy something once, and not have to worry about it. However, I probably will get a fenix sometime soon. Nothing wrong with them either.

Why does it have to be such an argument? Just buy both!

 

[generic808]

Have you ever owned a SureFire?. (I own an A2, EL2, EB1, and an L1.) I would tend to doubt you have.. It sounds like you are convinced it isn't worth owning. However, if you did own a SureFire, then perhaps you could talk from experience and say Fenix, from your experience, WAS in the same league. Nobody could then argue with that opinion, although we might still differ. Even if you don't own a SureFire, I don't think this is worth arguing about. You are still entitled to your opinion, and I am glad you are enjoying what you have. That's really all that counts.

Totally agree. If those bashing end up owning a SF of their own, I'm sure their minds will change. Hey, some lights will be brighter, some will have more features, etc. But when it comes to build quality, there is no comparison!

 

[Marduke]

Totally agree. If those bashing end up owning a SF of their own, I'm sure their minds will change. Hey, some lights will be brighter, some will have more features, etc. But when it comes to build quality, there is no comparison!

And I'm willing to bet a fair number of people "doing the bashing" do/have own(ed) SureFire, and are speaking from experience. Just read all the posts all over CPF of people who are fed up with having to contact SF's CS for warranty service. A light shouldn't use as many switches as it does batteries.

 

[ultimaonliner]

Marketing.

Maybe Fenix should make their flashlights heavier, dimmer, with shorter runtimes, less compact, and double the price if they want to be as good as Surefire?

If those things don't work, they could have them made here in the U.S., assembled by the lowest paid, least educated, least motivated Americans who would want to have a career working on a flashlight assembly line.

 

[js]

Well, I had hoped things would improve, or at least not devolve, but it appears that was not to be.

I think everyone has had their say at this point. We're done here.

Thread closed.