Laptop battery unsafe?

kuksul08

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Would it be unsafe to use this laptop battery for lighting applications? I opened it up, and each cell is 3.7V. Three are wired in parallel with 6 more in series for 11.1V total. The leads just go right onto the board which would be very easy to solder.

I just don't want it to blow up or break something. Maybe someone has done this before.

<unprotected 18650 cell>
 
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it's fine. they are unprotected cells if you break them apart.

I grabbed these fromt3 separate packs:
_MG_5171-800.jpg


using them fine w/ no problem, except for the Panasonic cells, they're at least 5 years old, and don't hold up well against high-ish currents. (1A...)
 
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it's fine. they are unprotected cells if you break them apart.

I grabbed these fromt3 separate packs:
_MG_5171-800.jpg


using them fine w/ no problem, except for the Panasonic cells, they're at least 5 years old, and don't hold up well against high-ish currents. (1A...)

Oh wow interesting, I didn't try to break it apart. I was just going to use my laptop to charge them, and then put some external connector, but that's neat if I can use them individually.

Your comment about them not holding up well is interesting though. How can you tell they don't do well at 1A? I was planning on using some old NiMh AA batteries for a new light but they are probably 7 years old. What happens to them?
 
Oh wow interesting, I didn't try to break it apart. I was just going to use my laptop to charge them, and then put some external connector, but that's neat if I can use them individually.

Your comment about them not holding up well is interesting though. How can you tell they don't do well at 1A? I was planning on using some old NiMh AA batteries for a new light but they are probably 7 years old. What happens to them?
Wait wait wait wait wait.

Do you understand that these are lithium ion cells? That they are different from NiMH cells, that they need a special charger, that they need to be treated carefully, and that if you do the wrong thing with them there can be smoke and flames and fire?

Before you go any further, read up about the safe handling of lithium ion cells. Do not experiment with them unless you know what you are doing.
 
Honestly, I do not know much about them, but yes I know they are lithium ions, and I've seen videos of them exploding violently. The thing about NiMh AA's was completely different.
 
you need a special charger for them..

I'm guesstimating that they don't do well under higher loads because the high current light I'm using dies pretty quickly compared to my other batteries, then again, I don't know the Ah rating.

Ni-Mhs develop a high self discharge rate over time, as in, they lose power by themselves.

I cannot guarantee everything I say, I'm relative new to li-ions myself.

currently using a ultrafire wf-139 charger, with good results.

PS: it is pretty easy to short circuit while removing from the pack, take extra care.
what battery pack is that? looks huge.
 
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you need a special charger for them..

I'm guesstimating that they don't do well under higher loads because the high current light I'm using dies pretty quickly compared to my other batteries, then again, I don't know the Ah rating.

Ni-Mhs develop a high self discharge rate over time, as in, they lose power by themselves.

I cannot guarantee everything I say, I'm relative new to li-ions myself.

currently using a ultrafire wf-139 charger, with good results.

PS: it is pretty easy to short circuit while removing from the pack, take extra care.
what battery pack is that? looks huge.

Yes I am aware of the special charger. Trust me I'm not going to do something without researching first (hence why I'm here ;)) I was just thinking of keeping it intact, and charging it with my laptop. Not sure if that could possibly damage the laptop though....

It's a Sanyo 7800mAh from my Acer laptop.
 
sounds good to me.

to reduce some of your research,
if you remove those cells from your laptop, they will not have a protection circuit. This means, you can accidentally discharge the batteries to <3.6V, which will damage them.

the laptop pack has a protection circuit, as you can see, but the only way you can use it is if you connect through those slots on the pack.

which acer model? is that battery pack a extended, extra large one? looks like a good source of unprotected 18650s.

aww. I have no sanyos :D
 
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I sourced out my 18650 cells from a friends used laptop.
Use them with my TK11 and M20 now for several weeks now,works great.
When the lights dim down, i know the batteries are at about 3.0V then i charge them with a Ultrafire charger.
I've been trying to find a laptop battery that has 17670 cells in it but no luck so far.
 
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sounds good to me.

to reduce some of your research,
if you remove those cells from your laptop, they will not have a protection circuit. This means, you can accidentally discharge the batteries to <3.6V, which will damage them.

the laptop pack has a protection circuit, as you can see, but the only way you can use it is if you connect through those slots on the pack.

which acer model? is that battery pack a extended, extra large one? looks like a good source of unprotected 18650s.

aww. I have no sanyos :D


How does the protection circuit work? Do normal Li-ion batteries have it built in or do people usually add it?

If they are nominally 3.7V each, that's kinda weird that discharging them to less then 3.6V can damage them. Why is that?

It's an Acer travelmate 8200, standard battery pack. This one in particular actually has a low battery health (around 60%), that's why I didn't mind wrecking it if I took it apart.
 
Honestly, I do not know much about them, but yes I know they are lithium ions, and I've seen videos of them exploding violently. The thing about NiMh AA's was completely different.
The videos you've seen are most likely of Lithium-polymer cells. Not the same thing.
That's not to say that these can't blow if treated badly enough, though.

The others have said most of what you need to know already, but here's an additional suggestion: if taking the battery apart, you'll notice the individual cells are connected to each other with thin metal tabs. To separate them, cut the tabs in the middle. This will give you two handy tabs already welded, on which you can then solder your own wires.

Note that this is only a good thing if you're planning on using them for DIY projects and such; if you want to use them in flashlights with metal bodies, you must remove the tabs (just pull hard) or they'll short out the cells once inserted in the light.
 
The videos you've seen are most likely of Lithium-polymer cells. Not the same thing.
That's not to say that these can't blow if treated badly enough, though.

The others have said most of what you need to know already, but here's an additional suggestion: if taking the battery apart, you'll notice the individual cells are connected to each other with thin metal tabs. To separate them, cut the tabs in the middle. This will give you two handy tabs already welded, on which you can then solder your own wires.

Note that this is only a good thing if you're planning on using them for DIY projects and such; if you want to use them in flashlights with metal bodies, you must remove the tabs (just pull hard) or they'll short out the cells once inserted in the light.


Very nifty :) Thanks man, I just may use these for a DIY power pack for my latest light.

Is there an affordable digital charger that will do NiMH, NiCd, and Li-Ion batteries that many of you use? I'm talking under $100
 
You're looking for a RC charger. Have a look at the battery section in rcgroups.com , you'll find plenty of suggestions.
Note that RC chargers can charge all chemistries, but only one pack at a time (or two for the expensive ones). This means if you want to charge, say, four bare NiMH AAs you'll be waiting a while.
I have a Hyperion 5i AC/DC that I use for bare lithium cells and packs of all chemistries, and a generic multi-slot smart charger for bare NiMH cells.

Oh, another thing: if you string up a pack of series-connected LiIon cells, you're going to need to balance them.

What computer does that battery come from?
 
You're looking for a RC charger. Have a look at the battery section in rcgroups.com , you'll find plenty of suggestions.
Note that RC chargers can charge all chemistries, but only one pack at a time (or two for the expensive ones). This means if you want to charge, say, four bare NiMH AAs you'll be waiting a while.
I have a Hyperion 5i AC/DC that I use for bare lithium cells and packs of all chemistries, and a generic multi-slot smart charger for bare NiMH cells.

Oh, another thing: if you string up a pack of series-connected LiIon cells, you're going to need to balance them.

What computer does that battery come from?

Oh interesting, I had been checking out the Piranha RC charger. You can set the number of cells, charge rate, trickle charge, etc. http://www.duratrax.com/caraccys/dtxp4005.html So that would work for Li-ions too?

Balancing the cells prevents one of them from taking too much charge, right?

The battery is from a Acer Travelmate 8200, it's the standard sized battery, Sanyo brand.

Instead of starting a new thread I will just ask here: this is the charger I am currently using for the nimh's. Is it just the slow charger type that can potentially overcharge the batteries?

Also regarding these NiMH's, do they have a limited discharge rate? (ie. is there a limit to how much current I can draw from them? I was planning on using 4 in series with regulator to power a Cree R2 at 1A.)

IMG_2151.jpg

IMG_2152.jpg
 
How does the protection circuit work? Do normal Li-ion batteries have it built in or do people usually add it?

Most Li-Ion cells do not have protection circuits, as most li-ion cells are in applications where they are being assembled into a pack (like your laptop) and it's much more effective to use a global protection circuit for the entire pack, rather than require 6 or 9 separate PCBs. You can buy 18650s and other size li-ion cells with protection circuits installed from a number of sources for flashlight applications. If you are planning on using them in the pack configuration they are in already, then leave the pack alone and take advantage of the protection circuit that is already installed. Keep in mind though that the PCB may have a maximum current limit so you are going to either be limited by the PCB as far as what you can run with it, or you are going to need to factor in the maximum safe discharge rate for the pack. I Personally suggest trying to keep your runtime in whatever configuration you decide to use it in at ~45 minutes or longer to keep the discharge rate safe.

If they are nominally 3.7V each, that's kinda weird that discharging them to less then 3.6V can damage them. Why is that?

The 3.7V rating is related to the average voltage delivered into a typical load for a li-ion cell through a typical discharge. There's no such thing as a battery that delivers a constant perfect voltage all the time into a veriety of loads, and there are hundreds of different applications and cell sizes and qualities out there so the actual discharge behavior varies in the industry. 3.7V is just a general average, just like with NIMH cells we call them 1.2V cells, when in fact, they charge to ~1.45V, and discharge to ~0.9V under a load, and average ~1.2V into typical loads, but there is a lot of variation from one brand to the next on how well they actually do under a load. Li-Ion actually charges up to ~4.20V open circuit, when a load is applied, the effective voltage drops to ~4.1V, and steadily declines to ~3.3V under a load before being completely drained. When the load is removed, then you will typically measure ~3-3.6V open circuit, anywhere in there means the cell is basically completely drained, it's best to try to keep the open circuit voltage above 3.6V for best cell health.

Dropping the voltage of a li-ion cell too low causes a sort of de-stabilization of the chemistry within. Having a proper number of electrons "chemically stored" within the cell keeps oxidation to a minimum, which increases cell health and life, overcharging and over-discharging throws this balance out of wack, and causes an increased rate of internal oxidation, which in the short term causes small increases in internal resistance and capacity losses, long term storage in an over-discharged state can actually lead to micro-shorting within the cell as the separators within the cell are literally eaten through by oxidation. Small shorts like this can cause pockets of heat build-up on a subsequent charge, the heat could further excite the chemistry, that in conjunction with a charge being applied could cause the micro-shorts to quickly expand into much larger shorts, which could quickly lead to thermal-runaway, the cell ignites and new chemical reactions begin, in lithium cobalt chemistry the combustion process actually generates it's own oxygen which continues to fuel the fire.

Scared yet? Don't be... We've had lots of people recover over-discharged cells, and quality cells can handle quite a bit of abuse before what I described above would happen. Keep your cells between 3V and 4.20V and keep track of their capacity over the years, discard when they are down to 80% of their initial capacity and you will be perfectly safe.

Eric
 
Also regarding these NiMH's, do they have a limited discharge rate? (ie. is there a limit to how much current I can draw from them? I was planning on using 4 in series with regulator to power a Cree R2 at 1A.)

IMG_2151.jpg

IMG_2152.jpg

Most consumer NIMH cells can comfortably handle up to a 1C discharge rate, or for a typical ~2AH AA cell, up to around 2 amps, many can handle much higher but it varies by brand and the specific cell in question. There isn't really a big safety issue with NIMH cells, abusing NIMH cells tends to just cause them to develop behavior problems, but it's very hard to make one explode or burst or anything. Some AA NIMH cells are designed to handle up to around 20 amps, eneloops can handle up to around 10 amps respectably well even though they are not even advertised as high current cells, and even many typical consumer cells will handle up to around 5 amps (2-3C) *reasonably* well.

The charger you have pictured is very likely a dummy style charger, the only thing the little "NiCD/NIMH" switch likely does is change the timer, longer for NIMH to finish topping them up.

7 hours at 210mA for the AA cells wouldn't even work for most modern NIMH AA cells, that would only charge them to ~50% of a full charge if dead when put on the charger. For your 1600mAH Panisonic's, from dead, you would actually need about 10 hours (estimated, possibly more) for a complete charge... Whereas a more typical 2100mAH cell would actually require 14-16 hours to charge. I personally highly suggest you invest in a smart charger with individual charging channels for each cell and smart "delta V" style termination.

If you put 4 NIMH cells in series, and use a buck regulator to drive an R2 to 1A, then your drain rate on the cells will average around 0.75A, well within reasonable discharge rates for any AA NIMH cell, it would even work semi-reasonably OK on alkaline cells.

Eric
 
The laptop drains it at 40W when processing stuff (3.33A) and 29W when idle (2.42A), as it had a charge of 12V , so the circuit board should be plenty to run a couple LEDs at 1A each.

The question is...how do I tie into that little connector? There are 6 or so slots.
 
I also just discovered that laptops used 18650 batteries. I opened up a pack and found eight of the Panasonic 18650's inside (the same green ones that are shown in the picture above).
I have an eagletac T10L, as well as a cheap "ultrafire" 18650 light that I could theoretically use these in.

The T10L has spacers to prevent batteries from being put in backwards, so flat topped cells don't really work in it. Is there anything that I can put on top of a flat topped cell to make it work? do I need something like THIS?

Would I even want to use these batteries? The T10L probably draws well over an amp from what I have seen, so these batteries might not work. However, I have a few other batteries I could dismantle.

So is it safe to use them even though they are a few years old? I don't really care if I ruin them by accidental over discharge; I just don't want to blow them up.
 
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I also just discovered that laptops used 18650 batteries. I opened up a pack and found eight of the Panasonic 18650's inside (the same green ones that are shown in the picture above).
I have an eagletac T10L, as well as a cheap "ultrafire" 18650 light that I could theoretically use these in.

The T10L has spacers to prevent batteries from being put in backwards, so flat topped cells don't really work in it. Is there anything that I can put on top of a flat topped cell to make it work? do I need something like THIS?

Would I even want to use these batteries? The T10L probably draws well over an amp from what I have seen, so these batteries might not work. However, I have a few other batteries I could dismantle.

So is it safe to use them even though they are a few years old? I don't really care if I ruin them by accidental over discharge; I just don't want to blow them up.

Once you tear them out of the pack they are bare unprotected cells, your flashlights could severely over-discharge them if you're not careful.

I suggest only using a high quality charger, and checking the voltage each time you remove a cell from the flashlight to make sure it isn't over-discharged.

Eric
 
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