Lighting for 24 hour race

[sac02]

I'll be competing in a 24 hour endurance road race in a couple months, and I'm currently trying to work out our team's plan for lighting. I'd like to keep the cost of the system around $300 (I know that's not much).

The race is an offshoot of the 24hours or Lemons (spoof on LeMans), where the cars can cost no more than $500, excluding items classified as "safety". Lighting related items are safety, but we still don't have an unlimited budget. There are no "rules" for lighting, other than the vehicle's lighting must be bright enough to safely navigate the racetrack at speed, and not so bright as to cause distress to other drivers.

One of my first thoughts was off-road lighting. I don't know much about them, but offroad lights like KC HiLites lightbars seem to produce lots of lumens for relatively cheap. But I foresee glare being the potential problem with using off-roads lights - correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most if not all lights designed for off-road use going to have no cut-off line, and hence produce major glare for other drivers?
Pros:lots of light, relatively cheap. Cons: glare

So my next thought was some sort of E-code headlamp - I have some Cibie's on my e30 BMW and they have a nice cutoff, and with high wattage bulbs can really throw some light. Possible small problem is mounting, we'd have to make some sort of bucket/mount for them, as they usually come just as the lamp, right?
Pros: cutoff line. Cons: expensive(?), con they produce enough light?

Third option - I have some OEM projector headlights here at work that I could chop up and use as a homebrew setup. My question about these is how much light I could get out of them. I think I have access to halogen and HID projectors, but they are only projectors for the low beams, the high beams are reflector units. Can I source higher wattage bulbs for the low beam projectors to increase the light output?
Pros: cheapest Cons: most labor intensive (housing fabrication, mounting), can they produce enough light?

Thanks for any insight or recommendations you can share.

 

[tay]

IMO, I would go with a cheap 55w HID kit, Philips OEM D2S bulbs, and a pair of new-ish HID projectors, maybe bi-xenons.

 

[-Virgil-]

Might help if we knew what kind of car you're building.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

The people who can help you the most will want to know:

Terrain
Road Type/Speed
Electrical system power

Mountains, hilly, flat?
Paved? Curvy, straight, condition?
How many watts of power can you afford - plenty, or just a few?

I think the car people can take it from here. You may want to edit the title to reflect 'car race.'

Edit: Already in the automotive section.

 

[sac02]

Car: 1991 Nissan Sentra, front end converted to an e30 BMW. The plan is to use lights mounted on a lightbar that will be mounted to the hood during a pit stop before nightfall.

Terrain: Nelson Ledges road course. (Paved sports car road racing track). No track lighting other than the moon.

Road type/speed: asphault road race circuit, winding, little to no elevation change, a very fast road race track - we expect top speeds of 120mph+

Alternator is 80 amps - most of the electrical systems on the stock car are gone, all that's left pretty much is ignition, ECU, brake lights, and windsheild wipers.

 

[-Virgil-]

That's pretty easy and cheap as far as the headlights are concerned: if you're going to encounter any adverse weather, use ordinary stock E30 projector-type headlamps with 9011 (HIR1) bulbs in the high and low beams. Or, about the same overall cost and probably better result if no bad weather: ordinary stock E30 sealed-beam headlight buckets with H5001 high beam sealed beams in the outer cups and H7680HIR ultralong-range sealed beams in the inner cups. Aim the H5001s slightly downward and rightward for use as ~low beams; they'll give you 50,000 peak candela which is more than you'll get from any low beam, with passably decent spread width. The aim of the H7680HIR will take some careful setting up. They produce a 6½° spot beam of insane intensity (300,000cd). Aim them cross-eyed; use trigonometry to figure out how far ahead of the car you want their beams to cross, taking into account your anticipated speeds and the curve radii you'll encounter. Beyond that distance, the beams will diverge to show you the curves you're approaching.

Run heavy-gauge wires and relays to feed the lights properly.

Hey, is this the same race where there's a team running an E30 Bimmer that's been converted to a '58 Plymouth?

 

[sac02]

Yes, this it definitely that race series. http://24hoursoflemons.com The race we are doing is http://www.usedcarracing.com/ It's basically the same thing. We built our car for LeMons, and are running the UsedCar race because we want to do a true 24hour event (despite the name, 24hours of LeMons doesn't have many 24hour events).

Part of the problem with using the e30 light locations is mounting and aiming. I said we had an e30 front end, but it is an e30 grill, headlamps, and headlamp buckets shoved into the stock Nissan front end opening. It's all held together with odd shaped homemade brackets, long bolts, and washers as shims in the right places. Basically, the lights are only there for looks right now. Properly aiming them would be time consuming, difficult, and of questionable reliability during the race. If anything got tweaked by a bumper rub with another car it would, as above, be difficult and time consuming to get the car back on track.

Mounting some sort of light bar to the hood increases reliability (the name of the game in endurance racing) because it moves the lights to where they're less likely to be damaged. But I don't know if your typical Hella Rallye 500/3000/whatever has any sort of cutoff line to make them suitable for use around other cars, or if they are cutoff-less and meant only for use with no other cars around.

And I have gotten more information about the HID option. I have access to 2009 RX350 HID headlamps (projectors, made by NAL). The idea of taking the projector unit out, fitting a 55w ballast (as tay mentioned), and putting the projector module in a small enclosure is intriquing, if for no other reason than price.

However, I simply don't know if the light output would be as good as some sort of 4 lamp halogen system (2 driving beams for reach + 2 fogs for width) that I had originally envisioned. When it comes down to it, DIY is kind of cool, cheap is good, but what I care most about is getting the most light in front of the car in the right places.

 

[Mtrhd0024]

What are the rules with regards to lighting? Would it have to pass the equivalent of say, an annual state inspection? If not, then to hell with the cutoff line, just get you some offroad driving lights and fogs! :devil: :devil:

Truthfully, a good set of driving lights as high beams, and maybe some fog lights for low beams, would do pretty darn well... Driving lights have a very pronounced "spotlight beam" so even though they might not have a "cutoff" per-se, they are still probably not going to blind other drivers if you aim them down a bit. (Aim them more like conventional high beams, instead of straight out in front)

I'm familiar with the 24 hours of leMons, (i've always thought it would be lots of fun to race it, but as of yet have not participated!) and if it were me, I'd probably just bolt the lights somewhere down near the front of the hood, or on the roof... Driving lights are best mounted as high as possible, fog lights are generally mounted as low as possible... But the biggest problem with mounting driving lights on the roof, is that if you end up driving in rain or fog, the glare will be horrible!

If you do decide to use some offroad driving lights or fogs, give us a shout, and I'll provide a link with a VERY bright (and very cheap) option! :thumbsup:

 

[-Virgil-]

some fog lights for low beams, would do pretty darn well.

They would not. Fog lamps (any fog lamps, all fog lamps) are completely, grossly inadequate for use as low beams, regardless of bulb selection or aim.

Driving lights have a very pronounced "spotlight beam"

Some of them do, and some of them don't. "Driving light" is not a sufficiently precise term for what you are trying to convey.

(Aim them more like conventional high beams, instead of straight out in front)

Conventional high beams are aimed "straight out in front".

the biggest problem with mounting driving lights on the roof, is that if you end up driving in rain or fog, the glare will be horrible!

That depends on which driving lights are installed and how they're installed.

If you do decide to use some offroad driving lights or fogs, give us a shout, and I'll provide a link with a VERY bright (and very cheap) option!

Can't tell if you're trying to sneak around the forum rule against unpaid commercials, or if you're being coy for some other reason. If you have a link for some very bright and very cheap lights, and it's not your company selling them, go ahead and post the link.

 

[TorchBoy]

Re: Lighting for 24 hour car race

Terrain: Nelson Ledges road course. (Paved sports car road racing track). No track lighting other than the moon.

How often do you expect to be able to use high beam without dazzling other drivers?

 

[-Virgil-]

I don't know if your typical Hella Rallye 500/3000/whatever has any sort of cutoff line

Generally not. But there are external-mount housings for various sizes of standard sealed beam or E-code conversion lights, too.

And I have gotten more information about the HID option. I have access to 2009 RX350 HID headlamps (projectors, made by NAL).

Perfect. Go with that, and augment it with a pair of H7680HIR beams in external-mount housings, aimed as described above.

 

[tay]

RX350 projectors have an impressive output. They are one of the best model projectors on the market, in terms of width and center intensity.

 

[Mtrhd0024]

Can't tell if you're trying to sneak around the forum rule against unpaid commercials, or if you're being coy for some other reason. If you have a link for some very bright and very cheap lights, and it's not your company selling them, go ahead and post the link.

I'm not selling anything... I was just going to suggest the Hella 700ff's as a good, cheap driving light... But I wasn't sure if that was something he wanted or not...

Don't feel like arguing with the rest of the stuff... I'm tired of being nit-picked by the rest of the keyboard warriors, so I'll shut up! :laughing:

Truthfully, I would have already shared what I did with my auxiliary lights, if I didn't feel like I'd be immediately shot down for it... Even though I know nobody else on this forum has done it, I'd still get a lot of "thats a terrible idea, and here's why it won't work" nonsense, despite the fact that I HAVE tried it, and in actual use it works darn well!

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Go ahead and post it. Most of us are already well aware of putting an HID kit in a halogen offroad light. Provided they are used offroad only, it's not a problem.

I guess setting your competitor's car on fire would provide a good bit of light, too.

 

[Mtrhd0024]

Go ahead and post it. Most of us are already well aware of putting an HID kit in a halogen offroad light. Provided they are used offroad only, it's not a problem.

I think I'll let some of the armchair quarterbacks cool their arms off for a few days before I post... I've actually written a mulit-page tutorial w/ pictures for making these lights, which is what I was willing to share with the original creator of this thread... But again. The negativity in the Automotive section of this site is astounding... It seems very few people have anything good to say about anything. (I'm not pointing fingers at you lol, I'm just saying in general!) So I'll just hold off for a bit!

I guess setting your competitor's car on fire would provide a good bit of light, too.

I like that idea! :thumbsup:

Do they allow flame throwers to be hidden in the grille of your cars? Make your own light as you work your way around the track, and then win by default! :thumbsup:

I realize your reply was sarcasm, (Diesel Bomber) but it made me laugh! :thumbsup:

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

I think I'll let some of the armchair quarterbacks cool their arms off for a few days before I post... I've actually written a mulit-page tutorial w/ pictures for making these lights, which is what I was willing to share with the original creator of this thread... But again. The negativity in the Automotive section of this site is astounding... It seems very few people have anything good to say about anything. (I'm not pointing fingers at you lol, I'm just saying in general!) So I'll just hold off for a bit!

I was amazed that such childishness was displayed, but I don't think the negative feelings behind it are misplaced in the slightest. Having someone behind you with an HID kit blinding the crap out of you through your mirrors or approaching the same car head-on will destroy your night vision for quite some time. It really is dangerous and inconsiderate to others, and I wish lighting laws were enforced much more stringently and with much higher consequences.

I realize your reply was sarcasm, (Diesel Bomber) but it made me laugh! :thumbsup:

Thank you, yes it was sarcasm and being funny was my intent.

 

[Mtrhd0024]

I was amazed that such childishness was displayed, but I don't think the negative feelings behind it are misplaced in the slightest. Having someone behind you with an HID kit blinding the crap out of you through your mirrors or approaching the same car head-on will destroy your night vision for quite some time. It really is dangerous and inconsiderate to others, and I wish lighting laws were enforced much more stringently and with much higher consequences.

I agree with you that they are inappropriate, and thus would never install them on my car, but as you said, it is the childish responses that amazed me.

I still think that educating people about the issue is a better option than just bluntly calling them a$$holes and telling them to GTFO of the forum. (So to speak.)

I mentioned this in another thread, but I still think that there should be a sticky at the top of this section, explaining (calmly) the dangers of using HID lights in the wrong type of headlight. (i.e. one not designed for HID)

This would eliminate some of the HID threads, and thus much of the flaming. :thumbsup:

 

[sac02]

Re: 2009 RX350 HID projectors.

Perfect. Go with that, and augment it with a pair of H7680HIR beams in external-mount housings, aimed as described above.

To make sure I understand your suggestion 100%, you would run the RX350 HID projectors more for width, and the H7680HIR's for reach?

Without any sort of cutoff, what kind of reach do you think the H7680HIR's could accomplish while still being aimed down far enough to not blind other drivers? Not necessarily asking for a specific number, but do you feel they would give enough reach for driving at 100+ mph?

RX350 projectors have an impressive output. They are one of the best model projectors on the market, in terms of width and center intensity.

tay (and scheinwerfermann, others) would you still suggest the 55w ballast w/ Philips bulbs with the RX350 projectors, as you mentioned in your first post?

 

[sac02]

What are the rules with regards to lighting?
...
If you do decide to use some offroad driving lights or fogs, give us a shout, and I'll provide a link with a VERY bright (and very cheap) option! :thumbsup:

The only rule in writing is very subjective (as are 90% of the rules in $500 crapcan racing - it's more the 'spirit' of the rules they consider important). Vebatim from the rulebook (which is all of like 5 pages long):

"13.13.2. All cars must have sufficient headlights for night racing. Any combination of stock (OEM) and aftermarket is acceptable, as long as they are not so bright as to impede the vision of other drivers."

I'd be interested in hearing your suggestion for a lighting option. PM me or something if you don't feel comfortable sharing it with everyone here, as you alluded to above.

 

[sac02]

Perfect. Go with that, and augment it with a pair of H7680HIR beams in external-mount housings, aimed as described above.

I just did a google search for H7680HIR and found virtually nothing. In fact one of the only hits I got was another CPF thread where you suggested the same lights to someone else, lol. Where in the world do you buy said lights?