Mac/FM Elephant HIDs 10W vs. 14W - Round Two

[LuxLuthor]

This is a whole new shootout after seeing the result in this other thread.

I think this thread will be a more definitive study of the Elephant FM/Mac 10W & 14W Welch Allyn (Solarc) HID units. I tried to get a bit more distance on the beach, and a variety of reflectors and glass removal of HID.

First thing I wondered about was the effect of removing the glass envelope around the HID, which the 14W arrived without it. So I carefully cracked the glass slowly in vise, then broke away remaining pieces with needle pliers like this:

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Then carefully re-insert into socket, and replace reflector/head. This will allow slighly smaller bore size to work (i.e. the MM 4") where the glass envelope would not fit through.

Here is the Lineup I used. All 10w except the Black 14w. Some have glass envelopes removed ("Bare"), which looks like a smart idea after seeing results. The 3rd Gold and 5th Gray should show the same results, as both have glass, and similar reflector textures.

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New location down at the beach with target building about 600 feet away. Default view shows settings used for all shots.

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Now the results

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And the rotating GIF of all 6 (larger file version is 1mb)

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Here is rotating of #3 & #5 that should be the same appearance.

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Slight wind off ocean gives some blurring of weeds. Froze my kahonies doing this shoot in 22°F + wind. Next shootout in warmer weather!!!

It's interesting to see the 14W now showing more flood than throw with farther distance target than previous shoot.

 

[AlexGT]

Nice pics! Do you think the improvement noticed by removing the glass envelope would also apply to higher wattage HID bulbs like the 35W and 50W?

Thanks for sharing!

AlexGT

 

[cryhavok]

these results are certainly counterintuitive :thinking:

 

[cmacclel]

Nice pics! Do you think the improvement noticed by removing the glass envelope would also apply to higher wattage HID bulbs like the 35W and 50W?

Thanks for sharing!

AlexGT

The only HID lamp I have seen with an outer envelope is the Welch Allyn Solarcs.

Mac

 

[AlexGT]

I mean this glass envelope in red.

AlexGT

 

[Patriot]

I mean this glass envelope in red.

AlexGT

Alex, I believe it's still all part of one structure. If look at it very closely it's entirely one piece. The top end of the bulb is hollow where the wire enters but the glass closes in a surrounds it one again about a 1/4 -1/2" down. The three random sample of 100W, 50W, and 35W bulbs that I looked at all appear to have the same single envelop design.







Lux, nice pictures. I'm still trying to figure out what to make from all of them since I'm so thrown off by the 14W which seems to be trailing in throw.

What I'm seeing so far is that the Gray 10W 3.5" Glass has the best throw in picture #4 but it is a 3.5" reflector so I'll set that one aside into it's own category.

Next in throw is the Gold 10W 3.0" Bare in picture #2, which I think throws the best of all 3.0" lights in these pictures.

Next in throw is the Gray 10W 3.0" Glass in picture #5

Next in throw is the Gold 10W 3.0" Glass in picture #3

Next in throw is the Green 10W 4.0" Bare in picture #1. Perhaps is trails the 3.0-3.5" reflectors because of the Light Stipple texture

Last in throw is the Black 14W 3.0" Bare in picture #6



So it does appear that the 3" without the envelope does have a slight advantage unless it's a 14W light which came in last, throw wise. That's also the part that's the great mystery I suppose. :thinking:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Alex, that sealed glass tube is required. It contains the elemental salts and the spark generating the light takes place within it. The Solarc HID has an additional glass sleeve around what I show in initial pictures. I believe it has a function of heat retention, and it has a frosted cap to minimize artifacts.

Patriot36, I think your observations are right. The 14W was the last one tested, and it was cold out, so not sure if that was a factor. I had freshly charged all the AW Li-Ion cells last night before testing. The bulb color is different with the 14W, but now that I look at it run on a white wall for about 15 mins indoors, I'm seeing about 1 sec of slight rose colored shift every 5-6 seconds, where overall lumen output decreases slightly. I don't know if this is normal, or related to overdriving at 4xLi-Ion, or if some component is in early failure. However my previous thread was a much closer distance, and pitted the 14W Bare MOP against a 10W Glass & 3" SMO, so maybe it would not have shown as well.

The 3.5" SMO should give the best throw, and it did. The bare HID does give better output, and #2 was the older reflector half stipple/op at bottom==>SMO. You can see the difference removing the glass makes comparing #2 & #3 which are the same otherwise. Here is another gif I made of these two alone:

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The others show effects of texturing & size. Clearly, for certain projects there is an ideal reflector setup. I don't think the LS 4" is the right choice for this setup. It was hard to get a sharp focussed spot with it.

Update: Well after posting that issue about the intermittent 14W 1 second of rose colored flickering every 5-6 seconds, I picked it up again and have not been able to reproduce it. So it is either that not all the salts were ionized, or the hot off the charger voltage is a tad too high for this ballast to regulate properly? 4 subsequent sessions of 2-3 minutes could not reproduce it. I'll try it again after fresh charging cells.

I also can now see that there is a big difference in colors between 10W & 14W Posting some ceiling shots is a second.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Here are some white ceiling shots, with ISO 80, "Cloudy" white balance, F-3.5, faster to slower shutter speeds to show hot spot==>some corona. 14W Black Bare on left; 10W Gold Bare (#2 from above) on right. The warmer 14W color may not look as bright as the colder 10W HID. This also demonstrates the variations in reflector concentration. I have adjusted both so the hotspot is tightest and brightest.

 

[Patriot]

More good shots. I like the color of the 14W a little better. Those are also good pictures for showing the overall output difference. I can clearly see that the 14W is producing more light because of the intensity of the hot spot. At that range it's smoking the 10W pretty easily. Might need several stops faster to show the 10W fading though.

Now you've got me wondering what the 14W Bare would look like with the 3.5" head.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Now you've got me wondering what the 14W Bare would look like with the 3.5" head.

Yeah, me too. Since we know SMO = Throw, I would have expected that result. The 3.5" was the only SMO I tested this round. I took the Green SMO from first round out of round two.

So I guess I should now also do a brief round 3 with Bare 10 & 14W using both 3" & 3.5" SMO interchangeably. Before too long, I will have so many combinations that only the most dedicated Elephant lovers will be able to figure out what's going on!

 

[Patriot]

Before too long, I will have so many combinations that only the most dedicated Elephant lovers will be able to figure out what's going on!

So true. I have some knowledge of them only because I follow FM's and Mac's work but I've never owned an Elephant. I find the different combinations and and history interesting though plus I love HID.

 

[LuxLuthor]

After Mac sent me the link from WA/Solarc to verify that the ballast spec's up to 18V, that resolved that potential question.

One other step that I didn't mention earlier (which I didn't think relevant, because I was focussed on fresh charged voltage) after which the problem went away--was I had rotated the light in all directions (360°).

What I was describing earlier reminded me of the incomplete HID salts-ionizing type effect I have seen on occasion with XeRay BarnBurner HID, and which improves with moving light in all directions.

Just picked up the 14W Elephant today, after it sat for a while, I noticed same issue, without having freshly charged the batteries. I then did the same slow rotation in all directions (360°), and the one second of slight pinkish discoloration every 5-7 seconds went away. So it is a HID salt distribution ionization issue. Yay!

 

[N10]

learning some stuff here..& one more question about the reflectors..how does the throw compare with a stock mag head and SMO reflector ?I mean in comparison with the 2.5+ inch heads?

 

[ZeissOEM2]

I do have one FM ELLIE HID 10W . I have only used it without the outer glass.
It was broken in shipping .

 

[SafetyBob]

Lux, you have no idea how much I can't thank you enough for telling me how to break (safety) that huge outer glass protection dome!!

I was going to try that awhile back with the 10W Solar I have before I didn the 14W one I have laying around (which I should have had completed....oh, three months ago).

I figured we were loosing a huge amount of potential light by having to make room for that dome. Now I know for sure. Thanks again!!

Bob E.

 

[Patriot]

learning some stuff here..& one more question about the reflectors..how does the throw compare with a stock mag head and SMO reflector ?I mean in comparison with the 2.5+ inch heads?

The stock mag head and SMO reflector does ok but the 3" VLOP head does a bit better. I don't have a 3" MOP but it might be a toss up. Lux Luthor could probably test that for you though.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Lux, you have no idea how much I can't thank you enough for telling me how to break (safety) that huge outer glass protection dome!!

I was going to try that awhile back with the 10W Solar I have before I didn the 14W one I have laying around (which I should have had completed....oh, three months ago).

I figured we were loosing a huge amount of potential light by having to make room for that dome. Now I know for sure. Thanks again!!

Bob E.

Good deal Bob. I have broken away 3 of the 10W HID outside tubes. The vise turning slowly can be stopped, vs. using pliers which have forward momentum and could damage inside HID/wire setup. You could use any screw type thing, like even a "C" clamp...just protect your eyes, and figure out a way to hold bottom fixed. Plug it back in by holding black base with needlenose pliers.

When it gets a bit warmer, I have a plan to do a comprehensive reflector shootout of all the various textures I have in 2", 2" Deep, 2.5" Turbo, 3", 3.5", and 4" reflectors with various bores & several bulbs. I have the complete set that Litho123 sold with range from SMO to heavy textured (Carley brand), Modamag (2" & 4"), Delghi (Carley), and FiveMega's.