MR16 Halogen VS LED recessed. Ideas please!

[yatzki]

Hi all,

I have about 50 MR16 spotlights at home that are recessed into the ceiling. They do not last long aside for a few fixtures.

While its possible that the voltage might be the cause for the short lifespan, I have no idea where to find the transformers. :sigh:

I also don't know whether they run on magnetic or electrical transformers. Neither do I know the transformer:bulb ratio.

Anyway, I was thinking of replacing all these bulbs with newer LED bulbs which I assume will last me way (!) longer.

So my question is this: Do you guys/gals have any idea where the transformer is likely to be placed in my home? (These MR16's are the regular lighting in the rooms.)

Also, which MR16 LED's are the best for my use.

(Related: Would heat be an issue in this case?)

Many thanks to you all!

Ben

 

[jtr1962]

Strangely enough, the halogen MR16s maybe in fact be lasting their rated life. The fact that you have 50 of them means you'll often find a burnt out one here or there. Just do the math. Let's say they're on 4 hours a night. That's 4x50, or 200 lamp hours each day. If they're rated at 2000 hours, then on average you replace one lamp every 2000/200, or 10 days. I do think that replacing them with LEDs is a good idea. Besides the power savings, you might increase your lamp replacement cycle by a factor of ten or more.

As for replacing these with LEDs, heat might be an issue but it all depends upon the design. Lots of good MR16 LED replacements exist out there. Look for one with a good heat sink, regulated current, and most importantly one using power LEDs, not 5mm indicator LEDs. I'm sure others will chime in with specific suggestions. I can't as I just don't have any MR16 lights in use, LED or otherwise. But any LED bulb which is a direct replacement for an MR16 halogen should be compatible with whatever voltage your transformer is putting out.

As for the transformer, look around where the circuit breaker box is. That's a likely spot for it.

 

[LEDninja]

Be careful when selecting LED MR16 replacements.

Main problem is beam shape.
I do not have these particular bulbs, but I do have the 115V screw base versions so I am fairly confident of what I am posting.
CREE XLamp XR-E LED, 3x 1W, Clear Lens has a flashlight type beam pattern identical to my Fenix L0D CE - hotspot & spill.
CREE XLamp XR-E LED, 3x 1W, Frosted Lens has a much smoother beam, the hotspot is wider but still very narrow.
CREE XLamp XR-E LED, 1x 3W, Frosted Lens is wider but still a spotlight rather than a flood. It is also 1/2 as bright as the 3x 1W for the same power input.

The Philips MasterLED MR16 I saw at Home Depot (~$30) has 4 Rebels, no obvious reflectors or optics, so should be more floody.

I suggest buying 1 bulb, make sure it works for all your applications, before buying in bulk. Remember to ask for any bulk discount!
Ay $30 or more per bulb * 50 bulbs initial costs are significant.

 

[ponygt65]

Strangely enough, the halogen MR16s maybe in fact be lasting their rated life. The fact that you have 50 of them means you'll often find a burnt out one here or there. Just do the math. Let's say they're on 4 hours a night. That's 4x50, or 200 lamp hours each day. If they're rated at 2000 hours, then on average you replace one lamp every 2000/200, or 10 days. I do think that replacing them with LEDs is a good idea. Besides the power savings, you might increase your lamp replacement cycle by a factor of ten or more.

As for the transformer, look around where the circuit breaker box is. That's a likely spot for it.

You referenced that in another thread, and I'm just having a hard time following you. I don't see how you can do a group hour rating like that when it comes down to individual lamp life. Most commodity MR16s are rated at 2000 hours. If he has them on for 6 hours a day, that's 333 days. However, you have to account for heat build up too. It could be that because he has so many, it feels like he's changing them all the time when in actuality he's not. IE: a domino affect of failures.

I have tested several LED MR16s and I have yet to come across one that is really worth it. I ahve no doubt that there are good ones out there, just not ones we have tested.

The transformer is most likely at hte end of the box behind the sheet rock. LV wire will only be ran for so long in order to carry the current. Since these are recessed cans, I'd presume each can to have a 60-75W transformer mounted to (or near) the can itself. You jsut probably can't find it.

On a side note......I'm shocked that someone would design only 50W MR16 cans as the only lighting. That's just wow. :duh2:

 

[jtr1962]

You referenced that in another thread, and I'm just having a hard time following you. I don't see how you can do a group hour rating like that when it comes down to individual lamp life. Most commodity MR16s are rated at 2000 hours. If he has them on for 6 hours a day, that's 333 days. However, you have to account for heat build up too. It could be that because he has so many, it feels like he's changing them all the time when in actuality he's not. IE: a domino affect of failures.

Chances are good not all of the lamps were new at the same time. So in all likelihood they'll be reaching their end of life at different times. I'm calculating an average time between lamp failures. Think about this a little more. You have 50 lamps. If they're on 6 hours per day AND last their rated life of 2000, then each lamp does in fact last 333 days. Now the question is do you have 50 burnt out lamps every 333 days, or more likely do you end up with 1 lamp burning out every 333/5, or about 6.5 days. Of course, it won't happen exactly like clockwork. You might have 3 lamp failures one week, 1 the next, and none for the following 2 weeks, but the average over a period of a few months should be close to what I calculated if each lamp lasts 2000 hours. In a year you would probably replace about 365/6.5, or 56 lamps, and unless you analyze the situation like I did you're going to think that's an excessive number.

And obviously heat or other factors could make the lamps fail sooner.

On a side note......I'm shocked that someone would design only 50W MR16 cans as the only lighting. That's just wow.

That makes two of us.

 

[ponygt65]

Chances are good not all of the lamps were new at the same time. So in all likelihood they'll be reaching their end of life at different times. I'm calculating an average time between lamp failures. Think about this a little more. You have 50 lamps. If they're on 6 hours per day AND last their rated life of 2000, then each lamp does in fact last 333 days. Now the question is do you have 50 burnt out lamps every 333 days, or more likely do you end up with 1 lamp burning out every 333/5, or about 6.5 days. Of course, it won't happen exactly like clockwork. You might have 3 lamp failures one week, 1 the next, and none for the following 2 weeks, but the average over a period of a few months should be close to what I calculated if each lamp lasts 2000 hours. In a year you would probably replace about 365/6.5, or 56 lamps, and unless you analyze the situation like I did you're going to think that's an excessive number.

And obviously heat or other factors could make the lamps fail sooner.


That makes two of us.

That's where I wasn't following you. I don't speak in averages when it comes to replacement of lamps. Mainly because it's just not realistic. Can an average be calc'd? of course, you just showed us. But the realism is, he will most likely be changing out 2-6 within XX time after XYZ months. The problem I see with looking at average change outs, is it gives the perception that he will be changing out lamps every 10 days (in this instance) and that's very unlikely and gives a false impression. If that were the case, then the lamps would last only 60 hours. We have to look at burn time. Hour ratings are nothing more than average hours. Could be more, could be less. But one things for certain, if he has a failure in 10 days.....even 90 days, then that's a quality issue, not a lamp spec issue.

Not trying to Argue btw, just trying to paint a 'clearer' picture. :thumbsup:

 

[greenLED]

Also, which MR16 LED's are the best for my use.

Can't suggest commercial solutions, but my brother's house was also designed/built with similar illumination (GU10's). We've been looking for solutions. The commercial LED replacements are still very expensive, so I'm going to slowly build him some replacements. I got the ideas and parts from this thread - the source linked there also sells MR16 components. We're talking a fraction of the price if you build your own, and it's not über hard to do.

 

[yatzki]

jtr1962,

Strangely enough, the halogen MR16s maybe in fact be lasting their rated life. The fact that you have 50 of them means you'll often find a burnt out one here or there. Just do the math. Let's say they're on 4 hours a night. That's 4x50, or 200 lamp hours each day. If they're rated at 2000 hours, then on average you replace one lamp every 2000/200, or 10 days.

They don't for a few reasons. One is that I stopped using Osram/Sylvania bulbs a while ago and switched to generic. My mistake.

Two; Even the Sylvania probably didn't last the full lifetime.

As for the transformer, look around where the circuit breaker box is. That's a likely spot for it.

That means I'll have to break the sheet rock to get to it. Ouch.


LEDninja,

Be careful when selecting LED MR16 replacements.

It's my understanding that for a quality bulb it should either be Philips or CREE. Correct? Also, is there a difference who builds the the CREE bulb?

Remember to ask for any bulk discount!

Thanks!


ponygt65,

However, you have to account for heat build up too.

True. And thats part of my question. Would LED have heat issues in my case too?

I have tested several LED MR16s and I have yet to come across one that is really worth it.

Have you tested recent Philips or CREE?

The transformer is most likely at hte end of the box behind the sheet rock. LV wire will only be ran for so long in order to carry the current. Since these are recessed cans, I'd presume each can to have a 60-75W transformer mounted to (or near) the can itself.

Behind the cans or behind the circuit box? If its behind the cans then I assume that its one transformer per bulb. Interesting.

I'm shocked that someone would design only 50W MR16 cans as the only lighting. That's just wow.

I'm shocked myself. (I didn't build it.) The truth is that not all the bulbs are primary. The kitchen ones are secondary and the Dining/Living room should also have a chandelier, which I'm not sure will be enough. Its the den and hallways that are issues.


jtr1962,

Chances are good not all of the lamps were new at the same time. So in all likelihood they'll be reaching their end of life at different times.

Some were bought at the same time and still died at different times. Probabaly a voltage difference. I even had one single bulb lasting about five (!) times as long as the other ones.

That makes two of us.

Three now.

greenLED,

I'm scared to risk it with so many bulbs. Not knowing the end result beforehand. Let me know how it works out for you.

Back to my question. Do you guys think that heat would be an issue in this case with LED's?
Also, do you have a good way of calculating how many lumens I need per cubic/square foot?

Many thanks for your kind help.

Ben

 

[ponygt65]

ponygt65,

1) True. And thats part of my question. Would LED have heat issues in my case too?



2) Have you tested recent Philips or CREE?



3) Behind the cans or behind the circuit box? If its behind the cans then I assume that its one transformer per bulb. Interesting.



4) I'm shocked myself. (I didn't build it.) The truth is that not all the bulbs are primary. The kitchen ones are secondary and the Dining/Living room should also have a chandelier, which I'm not sure will be enough. Its the den and hallways that are issues.


5) Back to my question. Do you guys think that heat would be an issue in this case with LED's?


6) Also, do you have a good way of calculating how many lumens I need per cubic/square foot?

Many thanks for your kind help.

Ben

1) Heat is always an issue with lighting. I dont' think you'll be any worse off than the Halogen in relation to heat. You can drill holes in the back of the can to help the heat escape if need be.

2) No I have not. I tend to shy away from all Philips Products if I can help it. The only Cree testing we've done is on the R30 can replacements.

3) Behind the cans. Typically cans will have their own transformer (not always, just the vast majority of the time) per light.
Quick reference: http://www.noralighting.com/catalog/4_Housings-504-1.html

4) WOW

5) See #1

6) That's hard to do given it's more of a fc rating #1 and #2, Lumen ratings are all over the place with LED lights. My suggestion? Pick the one that is a 50W (EXN) replacement and go one step higher. Test that out and see how you like it.

And you're welcome. :thumbsup:

 

[greenLED]

greenLED,

I'm scared to risk it with so many bulbs. Not knowing the end result beforehand. Let me know how it works out for you.

Back to my question. Do you guys think that heat would be an issue in this case with LED's?
Also, do you have a good way of calculating how many lumens I need per cubic/square foot?

Many thanks for your kind help.

Ben

We are too. We'll be starting with just 2 of the DYI LED replacements and go from there after some testing. I have quite a few optics that I could potentially experiment with, but I can't predict the results as the parts haven't even arrived (this is also to say I have no idea how your last question would be addressed).

I'll be able to gauge heat, etc. once I have the parts assembled. I'll also post details of the build on that other thread.

Maybe nein166 (from that other thread I linked) might be able to provide better input, since he's been using his home-made LED replacements for around a year now (at least going by the date on that thread)?

 

[alpg88]

not really answering your question, but. i have 6 fixtures that use 3x gu10 50w (same as mr16 but 120v).
i used to buy Phillips 3 pack for $14, they would burn out very quickly, i had to change on average 1 bulb per week.
than i said screw Phillips, let me get cheapest bulbs, so i started buying fiet brand that go for $8 per 3 bulbs, i was pretty surprised when i didn't have to replace bulbs for a month.

one would think known brand bulbs would last longer, than some no name cheap bulbs, but in reality it is opposite.

you might wanna try different brand, it might last longer

 

[LEDninja]

LEDninja,
It's my understanding that for a quality bulb it should either be Philips or CREE. Correct? Also, is there a difference who builds the the CREE bulb?
-
Do you guys think that heat would be an issue in this case with LED's?
-
Also, do you have a good way of calculating how many lumens I need per cubic/square foot?

With current incandescent bulbs about to disappear by 2012 and some people leery of mercury in CFLs, everybody and his brother is trying to get into LED bulbs. That includes lots of people who do not know what they are doing.
So look for UL, CSA, ETL or MET listing. That shows at least a third party lab has checked the bulb for safety issues (electrical & fire). Note the CE/RoHS you often see online is for 230V 60 Hz and is not accepted in North America. Browse the net & you will be surprised how many LED bulbs do NOT have the UL, CSA, ETL or MET listing.

Stay away from 5mm arrays. Most dim to 1/2 brightness in 6 months and are effectively dead in a year. There are lots of reports of dead bulbs in as few as 2 to 3 weeks.
1 watt/3 watt/Nichia are older power LED technology. Probably about as efficient as a CFL. Most do not have safety ratings. I had a couple of 1 watt LEDs I used as nitelites for 3 years 24/7 with no apparent drop in brightness.
Cree/SSC-P4/Rebels are the latest technology. More of these do but many still do not have safety ratings.
Check for colour temperature. The cool whites are brighter but the warm whites might be better for the living/bed rooms.

-----

LED bulbs like CFLs are sensitive to heat buildup. LEDs and or the driver self-distruct at 120-140°C (248-284°F). Not for enclosed (or insulated) fixtures.
LEDs are used in commercial retrofits because the hot air escapes into the false ceiling from the open top cans.

-----

How many lumens depends on how you use your lights. For a 10'*10' room:
Nitelite, avoid tripping over the furniture, running into walls and doors 100 lumens.
If your need is background lighting with strategically placed lights for reading you may get away with 300 lumens. Plus 100-200 lumens directional for each close in reading light.
If your need is normal bright overall lighting 1500+ lumens.

 

[jtr1962]

LED bulbs like CFLs are sensitive to heat buildup. LEDs and or the driver self-distruct at 120-140°C (248-284°F). Not for enclosed (or insulated) fixtures.

Actually, in my experience the LED is more robust than the driver. Some LEDs will happily run at 100°C junction temperature for a long time (look at the specs for the Altilon, for example). Most drivers on the other hand start to fail at around 70°C due to the inductor material suddenly losing inductance as it gets hot. Maybe you can extend that to 90°C by potting, but that's right around the upper limit. And even if it doesn't fail immediately, the driver won't last long at those temperatures.

 

[yatzki]

This site: Has a note saying the following:

IMPORTANT NOTE :
LED bulbs are compatible with all types of magnetic transformers but if they exceed the maximum voltage rating for the LED bulb, the LEDs will fail prematurely. Many electronic transformers require a minimum load which is greater than that provided by LED bulbs. LED bulbs will usually not work properly (no light output, flickering, strobing) in fixtures that have integral electronic transformers in each fixture. We recommend changing the power supply to a 12 VDC regulated type if possible. Otherwise you must make sure that the voltage of your existing power supply does not exceed 14 Volts with the LED bulbs installed. Many standard Track Light power supplies will produce voltages as high as 16 with little or no load (LED bulbs provide little load). If you run a couple of standard bulbs with the LED bulbs this will usually load the power supply down to a safe voltage but it is always best to actually measure the voltage to make sure.

Should I worry?

Can anyone suggest a quality source for Cree/SSC-P4/Rebels quality or better that is also standards compliant?

Thanks!

 

[yatzki]

I also found my original thread from a while back. Have a look there to see if it adds to the discussion.

ThankS!

 

[blasterman]

I also don't know whether they run on magnetic or electrical transformers. Neither do I know the transformer:bulb ratio.

Dumb question, but you're using 12volt bulbs to replace, right? Reason I'm asking is jumping to the assumption that these are 12-volt and not line voltage bulbs. MR-16's go both ways.

I'd like somebody to explain to my why cans with 12-volt transformers in them even exist because they seem like an oxymoron. For open rails I can see why you'd want 12-volt for safety reasons, but why in the hell would you run line voltage to each can and then step it down to 12-volt? It's just something additional to break, and this is a leading problem with 12-volt bulbs blowing out, especially if it's cheap electronic converters.

I trust any electronic component bought from DealExtreme as far as I can throw it, and this includes their super cheap MR 16 power supplies - wouldn't touch em' unless I installed half a dozen of them for a year first.

Can anyone suggest a quality source for Cree/SSC-P4/Rebels quality or better that is also standards compliant

The LED type isn't the concern. It's the driver used in the LED bulb that's the compatibility problem

Cutter Electronics makes the only MR-16 LED fixture I trust. Note that if you're using electronic transformers, you'll have compatibility problems with the LED MR-16.

 

[yatzki]

Dumb question, but you're using 12volt bulbs to replace, right?

Yes.

Note that if you're using electronic transformers, you'll have compatibility problems with the LED MR-16.

I see. Now I wish there was a way I can see the transformer without breaking my celling sheet rock.

 

[blasterman]

Yeah, I feel for ya dude. It's kind of like buying a house and finding all the outlets are two prong without a ground, which was common for awhile.

Who ever did this originally would have been better off just using a track. If they just had to have MR-16s then they could have used JDRs in regular cans.

 

[qwertyydude]

I'd like somebody to explain to my why cans with 12-volt transformers in them even exist because they seem like an oxymoron. For open rails I can see why you'd want 12-volt for safety reasons, but why in the hell would you run line voltage to each can and then step it down to 12-volt? It's just something additional to break, and this is a leading problem with 12-volt bulbs blowing out, especially if it's cheap electronic converters.

The reason for mr-16 being 12 volt is it's easier to fit low voltage filaments in small capsules than try to cram a long double wound filament into a tiny halogen capsule. Also it lets the bulb run hotter and more efficient of course at the expense of short bulb life. But you do get a very high quality of light output which is why they are often used for display cases of jewelry.

 

[ponygt65]

With current incandescent bulbs about to disappear by 2012 and some people leery of mercury in CFLs, everybody and his brother is trying to get into LED bulbs. That includes lots of people who do not know what they are doing.
So look for UL, CSA, ETL or MET listing. That shows at least a third party lab has checked the bulb for safety issues (electrical & fire). Note the CE/RoHS you often see online is for 230V 60 Hz and is not accepted in North America. Browse the net & you will be surprised how many LED bulbs do NOT have the UL, CSA, ETL or MET listing.

Stay away from 5mm arrays. Most dim to 1/2 brightness in 6 months and are effectively dead in a year. There are lots of reports of dead bulbs in as few as 2 to 3 weeks.
1 watt/3 watt/Nichia are older power LED technology. Probably about as efficient as a CFL. Most do not have safety ratings. I had a couple of 1 watt LEDs I used as nitelites for 3 years 24/7 with no apparent drop in brightness.
Cree/SSC-P4/Rebels are the latest technology. More of these do but many still do not have safety ratings.
Check for colour temperature. The cool whites are brighter but the warm whites might be better for the living/bed rooms.

-----

That's a tad misleading. Yes "Current" incadescents, but I want to clarify that Incandescents on their own are not disappearing.

Dumb question, but you're using 12volt bulbs to replace, right? Reason I'm asking is jumping to the assumption that these are 12-volt and not line voltage bulbs. MR-16's go both ways.

I'd like somebody to explain to my why cans with 12-volt transformers in them even exist because they seem like an oxymoron. For open rails I can see why you'd want 12-volt for safety reasons, but why in the hell would you run line voltage to each can and then step it down to 12-volt? It's just something additional to break, and this is a leading problem with 12-volt bulbs blowing out, especially if it's cheap electronic converters.

Don't get me started...I hate dealing with LV in landscape lighting, and interior fixtures. I have yet to find any benefit over Line votlage. The single thing I can come up with?...less Tungstun metal used...tis all.

BTW - if they were 12V lamps installed on a 120V line, they'd blow instantly. If it was reversed, they wouldnt' light, or would be EXTREMELY dim.