My new Lathe :)

[65535]

There are only two reasons to go CNC as far as I see it. Prototype/production machining, and intricate parts that require precise radii and the like that is nearly impossible to do on a manual machine.

 

[tino_ale]

Doing small parts runs, it could take a lifetime to pay back the machine. They might pay part of the cost of tooling, which isn't bad. CNC machines pay for themselves when they run 8 or 16 or 24 hours per day, 365 days per year.

Not questioning what you're saying but I don't think a machining company have the same requirements as me. They need to pay the machines, the place, the people, the logistics, taxes and everything. They need to fight the competition. Pay insurance etc.

My goal is only to pay the tooling and machine back. My time would not be paid. The place neither. And since my aim is to have my own machine and make parts myself, it would still Ok for me if it takes 6 month and a hundred parts to pay the machine back. Time is not a worry, as long as it doesn't take 50 years to get the machine paid :ohgeez:

I just have difficulties to estimate what kind of benefit I can make on a basic titanium part. Like a tailcap, a battery tube and so on. And what's the tooling cost associated to these work. And the time it will take on a small CNC machine to make them.... that's a lot of questions.

I may also just go for a manual lathe and accept the idea that I'll never get any money back until I resell it at loss.

 

[cmacclel]

Tino it appears you looking for a machine specificallty for titanium. Have you looked around at all the people's comments that are currently working with titanium? There biggest gripe as I have read appears to be drilling the intitial hole in the stock and have read some comments where it takes 30-45 minutes just to drill through a piece of titanium for a standard battery tube. These people have 12 x 36 1500lb machines. You on the other hand are looking to do the same with a 400lb machine. I guess you could double if not triple that time. I think if your specifically targeting titanium you would get frustrated with a small machine.

Mac

 

[PhotonFanatic]

As for working with Ti, as Mac just pointed out, the only difficult operation is deep drilling. There are two ways to deal with that: 1) Get a big powerful machine, or 2) Get some really good drills.

Both of those options are expensive. I have a decent lathe, a step larger than the mini lathes, and it has decent power, but I'd still call it a small machine, so I have to go option #2--and those drills can cost up to $160 a piece! :crazy: Still, buying good drills is cheaper than buying a bigger lathe, for which I don't have the room anyhow, and it is also cheaper than buying less expensive drills and then buying a sharpening machine.

There is a reason that custom light builders, especially those making one-offs, charge so much for their lights--it is very time consuming to work with Ti, and the tooling is expensive.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way from getting a lathe--just pointing out that if you are planning to work on Ti--just bump up your tooling budget. :devil:

 

[will]

Titanium is a tough material to work with. Certain operations work fairly well. Drilling, cutting with a band saw and a few others are very slow.

I suggest you do some math as to the cost and the money you expect to get on your return of investment (for the cost of the lathe )

The only way you will pay for the machine is to charge for your time. I'll give you a quick example. I am not counting electricity, space, heat or any other overhead costs.

Buy a piece of 1 1/4 diameter round aluminum 12 inches long. Figure that will make 6 tailcaps. keeping the math simple, the cost of the rod is $24.00, so - if you are not charging for your time. you would sell them at $4.00 each. You did not offset the cost of the lathe in any way.

Next - let's add a modest labor cost to the tailcap. Say $20 an hour. (Most shops are in the $60 - $90 range ) Figure it will take 30 minutes to make one, drill a hole, bore out the hole, turn down the outside, put on a thread, part it off the lathe, finish the back end. Add in the cost of the first part made and tossed because it is defective, the thread went too deep. so - you have 5 tailcaps that can be sold. Your investment is $24, material, $60 labor. now you have to sell the remaining 5 tailcaps for $16.80 each . You can generally pick up a stock tailcap from the manufacturer for under $10. These will already be anodized or plated in some way. ( I am making up numbers all over the place, don't hold me to them )

To offset the total cost of this machine ( $1200.00 ) - you will have to make and sell at least 120 tailcaps. I did not add in rejects, keeping the math simple. I do a lot of work on Mini-Mags. I probably have made no more 20 tailcaps in the last 3 years.

I am into photography, I have a few cameras, I have not sold any pictures, purely a hobby with me. I spent a bunch of money on the cameras and lenses over the years. I did not expect any return on investment. I also bought a mini lathe years back to make parts to restore old tin trains and parts for HO trains. Also bought with no intention of making money or off setting the cost.

So - after all that - I hope this makes sense to you..

 

[will]

and it is also cheaper than buying less expensive drills and then buying a sharpening machine.

I worked in a prototype machine shop years back. Every job was unique. One thing I was taught in the very beginning is how to sharpen drill bits by hand on a grinding wheel. These were simple points, no brad points or multiangle deals. I will say - a sharpening machine is much easier to use

 

[tino_ale]

:huh::huh::huh:

Guys, I appreciate your honest input. It's better that I lower my expectations now instead of figuring this too late.

I understand that producing 10-20-ish runs of titanium flashlight parts on a 400lbs CNC lathe is not going to produce any income that will pay for the tooling and lathe in any reasonable time.

I've got much to think about. Go the conventionnal route seems to be the way to go. Stick to a 400lbs lathe or get a 1000+lbs lathe is another question but I do understand that when it comes to machines, the heavier and bigger, the better.

Jeez. Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!

 

[StrikerDown]

:huh::huh::huh:
Jeez. Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!

You should see the cost of machines that are not made in Asia.

A small simple 2 color printing press for maximum 12" X 18" sheet made in Germany... $80,000.00 plus.

 

[precisionworks]

Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!

Actually, the machine is the cheapest part of the entire process - pay for it once, feed it a small amount of electricity, squirt a little oil here & there, call it good.

Tooling is the deal breaker, especially in hard to work materials (titanium, most stainless steels, abrasion resistant steels, etc.) It is heartbreaking to watch a brand new, $100+ twist drill snap in two because you went too deep between each peck cycle. EBay provides some less expensive tooling, but you won't find every drill size or coating type there, you'll rarely find specialty inserts for aerospace alloys (which includes Ti), you'll almost never see the little inside grooving or outside grooving tools used for making O-rings, etc.

Tooling is expensive. The machines might as well be free, as they represent (over time) only a tiny percentage of total machining expense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waspaloy

 

[will]

you'll almost never see the little inside grooving or outside grooving tools used for making O-rings, etc.

I bought a small carbide interior threading tool a few years back, I got it from MSC for $25 if my memory is correct,

 

[KC2IXE]

someone put it to me this way - figure tooling will cost the same as the machine for the basics - and it holds true for any price machine, because as you go up in size/quality, you need larger/better tooling to take advantage of said machine